Baffle Broken Inside Cat Converter...How to Fix?
07-23-2009, 03:18 PM
#21
Before I put my catback on I had just the high flow cat with the stock exhaust. Not much different in sound...that's where a muffler comes in. And as far as the low end torque, it didn't do anything for that. If anything it lost a bit. After I put the catback on w/ larger diameter pipe, its still about the same or a little bit less. Increase in the pipe diameter caused a bit less back pressure, but nothing too noticeable. High end rpm's though there is a noticeable improvement.
08-15-2009, 08:59 AM
#23
I'm glad you ask. You'll never believe the story I'm about to tell...albeit it a bit lengthy.
This past Monday, I took my 4Runner to a local muffler shop to get the Magnaflow cat installed. Raised the 4Runner, mechanic tapped on the 2nd cat and guess what, no noise? Tapped on the 1st cat and there was the noise! (It had been a while since I last crawled under my truck and I had forgotten it was my 1st cat making the noise, not the 2nd
.) So the magnaflow I just got, was the wrong cat to begin with. Mech confirmed my "assumption" that my 1st cat was in fact failing (only by tapping w/ his hand as I had done) and recommended I take my 4Runner to the dealer since these cats come with an 8yr/80K warranty. (This BTW, was the 1ST time I had ever heard of such warranty! I'm currently @ 85K miles, so I was hoping my dealer would warranty the entire thing since this problem has been going on since February when I was well below 80K miles!)
Tuesday afternoon, I took the 4Runner to the dealer. Tapped on the cat so they could hear what I was hearing. Service Advisor said "I'll put my lead technician on it. Give us 1hr." One hour later, adviser came back and said "Yes, your 1st cat is failing. It's breaking apart internally and sending all the loose material into your 2nd cat, which is causing your 2nd cat to prematurely fail. We're going to need to replace both cats to remedy the problem based on the recommendation of my lead tech." Came back w/ a price of $2,800.00 for parts and labor! I told him, "This problem arose when I was well below 80K miles, my CEL has yet to come on and my truck is still running top notch. Had I known such a warranty even existed, I would not wait until I had passed it to bring my truck in for the repair! Thus I should not have to pay a dime for this work." He said he believed me, but the OD mileage was the determining factor. Said he would speak w/ his Toyota Rep first thing Wed and let me know.
Got a call Wed afternoon from the advisor and said the Rep would warranty up to half of the parts bill itself and would cover the full amount of labor charge...thus bringing my new out the door total to a cool $1,000.00. (Still way more than I wanted to pay.) So I began speaking w/ fellow YT members who had gone the aftermarket cat/URD O2 simulator route when their cats failed and had come to the conclusion that'd be the route I'd take.
Friday afternoon, I crawled under my 4Runner just to see if I could remove my 1st cat and just hollow it out for the time being (this rattling noise was driving me crazy!). Then I noticed NOT a single bolt on my entire exhaust system had been touched! Meaning, it appears that the toyota mechanic did not even remove either cat to confirm his diagnosis! He must have simply done the hand tap and knock test as I had been doing! No clue what else he would have been doing for the hour he had it...glad to know I was not charged for this.
So I got to tinkering around and found the root of the noise myself! One of the four small bolts that hold the heat shield to the cat had become loose and was causing all this rattling! (Can't explain how I missed this before.) It was one of the 2 bolts on top and not easily seen at first glance (I really had to "feel" around to find it.) I simply forced the loose bolt out and no more noise!!
The dealer was actually going to charge me a $1,000.00 to replace 2 WORKING cats! In another words, I was going to pay $1K for a $0.10 bolt!
Here's a pic of that $1K loose bolt. Notice it's not holding the 2 shields together:
You can see the 2nd top bolt in the background that is still properly secured:
Said bolt removed:
You'd be surprised how much noise such a little bolt could create. This noise could be heard in the cab of the vehicle even w/ the radio on. I'm just upset w/ myself that I could have fixed this noise months ago! Oh well, at least I'm a $1K dollars richer. I even made 2 short videos of before and after the noise to prove to my dealer that this small bolt was the root of the problem.
In both vids, I'm simply hitting the cat w/ my hand (BTW, I'm not hitting it as hard as it might sound):
Before. You can even see the bolt moving:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvvhJWxtBlE
After:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvvhJWxtBlE
I doubt it will do any good, but I'm taking these photos and videos to the dealer to show the service advisor and manager how they were about to screw me over. I understand it was a "mistake" on their part, but this diagnosis came from their supposed "lead tech". Just b/c I had assumed the noise was due to a failing cat, the tech should have been able to reach a more conclusive diagnosis on his own. Guess he must have been seen $$ instead. No telling how many other people they are (or have been) screwing over too! Doubt I'll ever be using this dealer for service again...
This past Monday, I took my 4Runner to a local muffler shop to get the Magnaflow cat installed. Raised the 4Runner, mechanic tapped on the 2nd cat and guess what, no noise? Tapped on the 1st cat and there was the noise! (It had been a while since I last crawled under my truck and I had forgotten it was my 1st cat making the noise, not the 2nd
.) So the magnaflow I just got, was the wrong cat to begin with. Mech confirmed my "assumption" that my 1st cat was in fact failing (only by tapping w/ his hand as I had done) and recommended I take my 4Runner to the dealer since these cats come with an 8yr/80K warranty. (This BTW, was the 1ST time I had ever heard of such warranty! I'm currently @ 85K miles, so I was hoping my dealer would warranty the entire thing since this problem has been going on since February when I was well below 80K miles!)Tuesday afternoon, I took the 4Runner to the dealer. Tapped on the cat so they could hear what I was hearing. Service Advisor said "I'll put my lead technician on it. Give us 1hr." One hour later, adviser came back and said "Yes, your 1st cat is failing. It's breaking apart internally and sending all the loose material into your 2nd cat, which is causing your 2nd cat to prematurely fail. We're going to need to replace both cats to remedy the problem based on the recommendation of my lead tech." Came back w/ a price of $2,800.00 for parts and labor! I told him, "This problem arose when I was well below 80K miles, my CEL has yet to come on and my truck is still running top notch. Had I known such a warranty even existed, I would not wait until I had passed it to bring my truck in for the repair! Thus I should not have to pay a dime for this work." He said he believed me, but the OD mileage was the determining factor. Said he would speak w/ his Toyota Rep first thing Wed and let me know.
Got a call Wed afternoon from the advisor and said the Rep would warranty up to half of the parts bill itself and would cover the full amount of labor charge...thus bringing my new out the door total to a cool $1,000.00. (Still way more than I wanted to pay.) So I began speaking w/ fellow YT members who had gone the aftermarket cat/URD O2 simulator route when their cats failed and had come to the conclusion that'd be the route I'd take.
Friday afternoon, I crawled under my 4Runner just to see if I could remove my 1st cat and just hollow it out for the time being (this rattling noise was driving me crazy!). Then I noticed NOT a single bolt on my entire exhaust system had been touched! Meaning, it appears that the toyota mechanic did not even remove either cat to confirm his diagnosis! He must have simply done the hand tap and knock test as I had been doing! No clue what else he would have been doing for the hour he had it...glad to know I was not charged for this.
So I got to tinkering around and found the root of the noise myself! One of the four small bolts that hold the heat shield to the cat had become loose and was causing all this rattling! (Can't explain how I missed this before.) It was one of the 2 bolts on top and not easily seen at first glance (I really had to "feel" around to find it.) I simply forced the loose bolt out and no more noise!!
The dealer was actually going to charge me a $1,000.00 to replace 2 WORKING cats! In another words, I was going to pay $1K for a $0.10 bolt!
Here's a pic of that $1K loose bolt. Notice it's not holding the 2 shields together:
You can see the 2nd top bolt in the background that is still properly secured:
Said bolt removed:
You'd be surprised how much noise such a little bolt could create. This noise could be heard in the cab of the vehicle even w/ the radio on. I'm just upset w/ myself that I could have fixed this noise months ago! Oh well, at least I'm a $1K dollars richer
. I even made 2 short videos of before and after the noise to prove to my dealer that this small bolt was the root of the problem.In both vids, I'm simply hitting the cat w/ my hand (BTW, I'm not hitting it as hard as it might sound):
Before. You can even see the bolt moving:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvvhJWxtBlE
After:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvvhJWxtBlE
I doubt it will do any good, but I'm taking these photos and videos to the dealer to show the service advisor and manager how they were about to screw me over. I understand it was a "mistake" on their part, but this diagnosis came from their supposed "lead tech". Just b/c I had assumed the noise was due to a failing cat, the tech should have been able to reach a more conclusive diagnosis on his own. Guess he must have been seen $$ instead. No telling how many other people they are (or have been) screwing over too! Doubt I'll ever be using this dealer for service again...
Last edited by Rock Slide; 01-27-2010 at 04:56 PM.
08-15-2009, 02:33 PM
#24
Yeah, I only take my vehicles to the dealer when they need something I can't fix myself. I'd much rather work on my own vehicles than give them to the dealer to screw up.
This just goes to show you how the dealer can make a mountain out of a mole hill...
This just goes to show you how the dealer can make a mountain out of a mole hill...
Last edited by Rock Slide; 08-15-2009 at 02:35 PM.
08-17-2009, 04:04 AM
#25
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WoW.
Unbelievable.
It's threads like these that make me feel so grateful that I have a good, honest dealership to use.
I've been using them for 7+ years now and I don't feel like I have ever been screwed over - not to mention they give me an insane discount.
Hopefully the lengthy PM I sent you at least helped you a little bit, I'm just glad you don't need to go through any of that trouble.
Glad you took it upon yourself to diagnose and my Lord is that going to be an easy and fulfilling thing to fix.
Just wait until you get a pile of rocks up in the heatshield, you'll think your rear axle had just fallen off.
Fink
Unbelievable.
It's threads like these that make me feel so grateful that I have a good, honest dealership to use.
I've been using them for 7+ years now and I don't feel like I have ever been screwed over - not to mention they give me an insane discount.
Hopefully the lengthy PM I sent you at least helped you a little bit, I'm just glad you don't need to go through any of that trouble.
Glad you took it upon yourself to diagnose and my Lord is that going to be an easy and fulfilling thing to fix.
Just wait until you get a pile of rocks up in the heatshield, you'll think your rear axle had just fallen off.
Fink
08-17-2009, 06:48 AM
#26
Registered User
Thats why they call it a stealership! Man, I can't believe the sound that little bolt made. Good for you, I bet they spent a whole five seconds under the truck looking too.
08-17-2009, 08:58 AM
#28
I can't wait to bust them on it. I'm tracking down the Toy Rep at the moment simply b/c I don't know if the Service Manager and Tech are in cahoots to screw people over. I know the Rep is going to love knowing he just approved $2800.00 worth of work for this dealership to perform unneeded repairs! He'll also be glad to know he just lost a valued customer and that I'm spreading the word.
BTW, NEVER USE SERRA TOYOTA FOR SERVICE IF YOU ARE IN THE BIRMINGHAM, AL AREA.
I'm getting all my ducks in a row as we speak. I just had the service advisor fax me a copy of my service ticket quote...just told him I wanted to look it over before I made up my mind. Next I'll print out the photos to have in hand and take the camera w/ me for the videos.
BTW, NEVER USE SERRA TOYOTA FOR SERVICE IF YOU ARE IN THE BIRMINGHAM, AL AREA.
I'm getting all my ducks in a row as we speak. I just had the service advisor fax me a copy of my service ticket quote...just told him I wanted to look it over before I made up my mind. Next I'll print out the photos to have in hand and take the camera w/ me for the videos.
08-17-2009, 10:30 AM
#30
Get this, I just called the service advisor back to ask what method of inspection did their lead tech perform on my exhaust system (for an entire hour no less) to come to the conlusion both cats need replacing...he replied with:
"Well, your exhaust system has a good bit of rust on the bolts that hold all the piping together, so my tech was unable to physically remove the cats, but he did said he's heard cats sound like this a dozen times when they have failed. He has been doing this for 17yrs, so he knows what he's talking about."
And if that wasn't enough of a laugh, here's the kicker:
"The tech also hooked up your 4Runner to our diagnostic machine to check for signs of cat failure, but everything is running properly like it should be. No codes are being thrown or anything. But sometimes even the machines are not exact. Our tech said you still need 2 new cats."
Are you kidding me?? If the machine says my truck is performing as it should, wouldn't that be the first clue that the problem might not be the cats themselves...it may be something else altogether! Good grief, these guys are wearing me out!
Found out the Toyota Rep for this Region who approved all this work is Larry Scruggs. Working on getting a contact #/email for him now.
"Well, your exhaust system has a good bit of rust on the bolts that hold all the piping together, so my tech was unable to physically remove the cats, but he did said he's heard cats sound like this a dozen times when they have failed. He has been doing this for 17yrs, so he knows what he's talking about."
And if that wasn't enough of a laugh, here's the kicker:
"The tech also hooked up your 4Runner to our diagnostic machine to check for signs of cat failure, but everything is running properly like it should be. No codes are being thrown or anything. But sometimes even the machines are not exact. Our tech said you still need 2 new cats."
Are you kidding me?? If the machine says my truck is performing as it should, wouldn't that be the first clue that the problem might not be the cats themselves...it may be something else altogether! Good grief, these guys are wearing me out!
Found out the Toyota Rep for this Region who approved all this work is Larry Scruggs. Working on getting a contact #/email for him now.
Last edited by Rock Slide; 08-17-2009 at 11:30 AM.
08-17-2009, 10:53 AM
#31
Ha these people are pieces of work!!!
I just listened to the video and yea definitely a different sound then when my tac'd rings inside of the cat came loose. Much more external sounding.
Just goes to prove it's even hard to trust dealers...When I brought my Tacoma in to get the frame checked out, just sitting in the waiting room I got that un-easy feeling like you're in the doctors office waiting for your name to be called. I was nervous hearing all the bangin' and not being able to see my precious...
I just listened to the video and yea definitely a different sound then when my tac'd rings inside of the cat came loose. Much more external sounding.
Just goes to prove it's even hard to trust dealers...When I brought my Tacoma in to get the frame checked out, just sitting in the waiting room I got that un-easy feeling like you're in the doctors office waiting for your name to be called. I was nervous hearing all the bangin' and not being able to see my precious...
08-17-2009, 11:37 AM
#32
Registered User
you defently are stirring up the stink down there. is it possible to go to the BBB or something, new to this whole stirring up crap issue.. 
oh and saw your profile. defently attention to detail!
oh and saw your profile. defently attention to detail!
Last edited by SnowRunner98; 08-17-2009 at 11:50 AM.
09-02-2009, 10:19 AM
#33
Being that almost a month has passed, I've calmed down quite a bit since the initial development. I did learn that mentioning what has transpired to the Toyota Rep would do little if any good. Being that each dealership is individually owned and operated, the rep could not care less about my problem. Rather I should take my case to the GM if need be.
However, I personally know the service mgr and 4 of the 6 service advisors who work there. Figured I'd talk w/ them first and see how it goes. If I get zero response, I'll go higher. (I didn't see a point in getting into a screaming/cussing match w/ all the parties involved over something like this...all that does is make my blood pressure go up. Granted, I don't plan to use this dealership ever again, but at some point down the road, I may have to...and if I do, I want it to be on good grounds. I don't want to screwed over then for showing off my butt now.)
Met with the service manager and both service advisors that were involved (one advisor who's a good friend of mine) this past Monday evening. All 3 were blown away by my discovery and were very apologetic. The service mgr himself was very upset with his tech (and advisors) and I could tell his reactions were not "put on" or fake. Had his tech not left for the day, he said he'd chew him up and down right then and there.
The 2 advisors even admitted they themselves rely too heavily on what this tech tells them, simply b/c he's supposedly one of the best techs around. They learned that even though most ppl there worship the ground this tech walks on, he can be wrong from time to time. My case just happened to be one of the more obvious mistakes.
All in all, we talked for good 30mins and I left feeling like I got my point across and they themselves learned a valuable lesson.
However, I personally know the service mgr and 4 of the 6 service advisors who work there. Figured I'd talk w/ them first and see how it goes. If I get zero response, I'll go higher. (I didn't see a point in getting into a screaming/cussing match w/ all the parties involved over something like this...all that does is make my blood pressure go up. Granted, I don't plan to use this dealership ever again, but at some point down the road, I may have to...and if I do, I want it to be on good grounds. I don't want to screwed over then for showing off my butt now.)
Met with the service manager and both service advisors that were involved (one advisor who's a good friend of mine) this past Monday evening. All 3 were blown away by my discovery and were very apologetic. The service mgr himself was very upset with his tech (and advisors) and I could tell his reactions were not "put on" or fake. Had his tech not left for the day, he said he'd chew him up and down right then and there.
The 2 advisors even admitted they themselves rely too heavily on what this tech tells them, simply b/c he's supposedly one of the best techs around. They learned that even though most ppl there worship the ground this tech walks on, he can be wrong from time to time. My case just happened to be one of the more obvious mistakes.
All in all, we talked for good 30mins and I left feeling like I got my point across and they themselves learned a valuable lesson.
09-02-2009, 11:53 AM
#34
Registered User
Well it sounds like you got some good results to the rattling bolt...it's nice to see that some folks realize they made a mistake.
good think the bolt didn't cost all that much.
good think the bolt didn't cost all that much.
09-02-2009, 12:48 PM
#35
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Being that almost a month has passed, I've calmed down quite a bit since the initial development. I did learn that mentioning what has transpired to the Toyota Rep would do little if any good. Being that each dealership is individually owned and operated, the rep could not care less about my problem. Rather I should take my case to the GM if need be.
However, I personally know the service mgr and 4 of the 6 service advisors who work there. Figured I'd talk w/ them first and see how it goes. If I get zero response, I'll go higher. (I didn't see a point in getting into a screaming/cussing match w/ all the parties involved over something like this...all that does is make my blood pressure go up. Granted, I don't plan to use this dealership ever again, but at some point down the road, I may have to...and if I do, I want it to be on good grounds. I don't want to screwed over then for showing off my butt now.)
Met with the service manager and both service advisors that were involved (one advisor who's a good friend of mine) this past Monday evening. All 3 were blown away by my discovery and were very apologetic. The service mgr himself was very upset with his tech (and advisors) and I could tell his reactions were not "put on" or fake. Had his tech not left for the day, he said he'd chew him up and down right then and there.
The 2 advisors even admitted they themselves rely too heavily on what this tech tells them, simply b/c he's supposedly one of the best techs around. They learned that even though most ppl there worship the ground this tech walks on, he can be wrong from time to time. My case just happened to be one of the more obvious mistakes.
All in all, we talked for good 30mins and I left feeling like I got my point across and they themselves learned a valuable lesson.
However, I personally know the service mgr and 4 of the 6 service advisors who work there. Figured I'd talk w/ them first and see how it goes. If I get zero response, I'll go higher. (I didn't see a point in getting into a screaming/cussing match w/ all the parties involved over something like this...all that does is make my blood pressure go up. Granted, I don't plan to use this dealership ever again, but at some point down the road, I may have to...and if I do, I want it to be on good grounds. I don't want to screwed over then for showing off my butt now.)
Met with the service manager and both service advisors that were involved (one advisor who's a good friend of mine) this past Monday evening. All 3 were blown away by my discovery and were very apologetic. The service mgr himself was very upset with his tech (and advisors) and I could tell his reactions were not "put on" or fake. Had his tech not left for the day, he said he'd chew him up and down right then and there.
The 2 advisors even admitted they themselves rely too heavily on what this tech tells them, simply b/c he's supposedly one of the best techs around. They learned that even though most ppl there worship the ground this tech walks on, he can be wrong from time to time. My case just happened to be one of the more obvious mistakes.
All in all, we talked for good 30mins and I left feeling like I got my point across and they themselves learned a valuable lesson.
Don't know, but if it were me, I would definitely go elsewhere.Also, I wouldn't even go back to that muffler shop. Sure, he diagnosed that it was the wrong cat, but how can he not check the heat shields? I'm sorry, but if mufflers is your business, you should know the things inside and out and neglecting to check the very obvious is no excuse. Perhaps, he was looking to make a few $$ as well.
Sorry if I seem very skeptical, but ever since I got majorly screwed over with my very first car, I will always question mechanics. Especially if I'm at a dealership.
09-02-2009, 05:05 PM
#37
I am glad you actually took time to go down there and straighten everything out. However, I wonder how many times this has been rehearsed before? I know you said his reactions weren't fake, but maybe that's because he's had plenty of practice? Don't know, but if it were me, I would definitely go elsewhere.
I asummed the same thing, but after talking with all 3 of them, it was obvious it was not rehearsed. And believe me, even though I felt they were honest in their responses, I will not be going back. Just didn't feel like throwing that in their faces too...no point in kicking a dead horse.
Also, I wouldn't even go back to that muffler shop. Sure, he diagnosed that it was the wrong cat, but how can he not check the heat shields? I'm sorry, but if mufflers is your business, you should know the things inside and out and neglecting to check the very obvious is no excuse. Perhaps, he was looking to make a few $$ as well.
lol, I agree. That's one more place I've X'd off my list. Muffler guy tapped the cat a few times and said right away it was a bad cat. Even though I told him my CEL had yet to come on and my truck was still running great, he still said it was the cat.
Sorry if I seem very skeptical, but ever since I got majorly screwed over with my very first car, I will always question mechanics. Especially if I'm at a dealership.
No apology necessary. I feel you should be skeptical about any place you take your vehicle to...especially dealerships.
Don't know, but if it were me, I would definitely go elsewhere.I asummed the same thing, but after talking with all 3 of them, it was obvious it was not rehearsed. And believe me, even though I felt they were honest in their responses, I will not be going back. Just didn't feel like throwing that in their faces too...no point in kicking a dead horse.
Also, I wouldn't even go back to that muffler shop. Sure, he diagnosed that it was the wrong cat, but how can he not check the heat shields? I'm sorry, but if mufflers is your business, you should know the things inside and out and neglecting to check the very obvious is no excuse. Perhaps, he was looking to make a few $$ as well.
lol, I agree. That's one more place I've X'd off my list. Muffler guy tapped the cat a few times and said right away it was a bad cat. Even though I told him my CEL had yet to come on and my truck was still running great, he still said it was the cat.
Sorry if I seem very skeptical, but ever since I got majorly screwed over with my very first car, I will always question mechanics. Especially if I'm at a dealership.
No apology necessary. I feel you should be skeptical about any place you take your vehicle to...especially dealerships.
And yes, it does not take much to start w/ the obvious. I did learn that this top tech had a personal matter to attend to immeadiately after he finished looking over my truck. Because of that, I'm sure he did not give full attn to my vehicle. I know that's no excuse, but I've done similar things myself.
Nonetheless, they will not see my business again.
10-06-2009, 11:05 AM
#40
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Sorry for my ignorance, I really need help. I was confused if the magnaflow catalytic converter is pretty good?and also where to buy? I do some searched, inguiry and I tried it here Magnaflow Catalytic Converter. Anyone tried it here.? Any suggestions, please let me know. Thanks.
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