tj884Rdlx

I'm replacing the complete exhaust for the second time. I don't want to do this again so I'm seeking advice. My principle concern is longevity then quietness. (Not power or rumble)

The cast iron manifold I bought last time has a 4" horizontal crack in it. So I'm considering headers. But $400 for thorley 4-2-1 is really pricey.

QUESTION 1: is a Toyota stock manifold going to last more than the 5 years this Dorman one did? How much longer would headers last? (Please answer from experience not speculation)

I'm going free flow universal cat into magnaflow muffler, based on reading till 5am here the last two nights. I'll buy these and then go to exhaust shop to custom bend the rest and install it all.

QUESTION 2: 2" or 2.25" (including cat and muffler ends) I want to maximize power of course.

I plan to keep the egr and cat, because too many people reported loss of power without it. But i'm unsure about keeping the air injection.

QUESTION 3: is there a valid argument for eliminating any of the emissions? (Based on real experience, not hearsay) my exh already chokes me with back open. (Probably cuz my leaks have O2 running it too rich) I'd like it to smell clean as possible.

FINAL Q: what other items should I buy in advance? From where, for best quality without getting ripped off? (Not "cheap", just not giving money away needlessly)
- studs
- nuts
- exh Mani gasket
- O2 sensor

Please advise which are critical "must-haves", or must-do's. (Lke where to use a particular spray chem)

Final info: 88 4runner 5sp, 22re, cannot do it myself, so don't waste time suggesting it. (Spinal issues) i appreciate all EXPERIENCED advice. Not hearsay or other.

P.s if you're near Atlanta and an exhaust expert for hire, PM me please.

I want this done right this time. Shouldn't have to buy new exhaust every 5 years.

Thanks guys.

mwisham

I have a 1980 with a 20R engine in it. It had very bad vacuum leaks so I eliminated all the smog controls EGR valve etc. Put on a Weber carb and a header and have been very pleased with the results. I bought the carb and header from a company in NC called J T outfitters and paid about $400 all together for both. I think you would be better off desmogging it, but I don't know if it would pass emissions in Atlanta w/o the EGR etc.

donomite49

Had a Downey stainless header with a 2.5" exhaust on my 22re.

Did the 3.4 swap with OBX stainless headers with same 2.5"exhaust that's been on for 15 years now.

I'd look into a OBX stainless header and a 2.25" or 2.5" exhaust with a "quiet" open chamber muffler, aluminized steel pipe.

Desmog and decat if you can, but you have to keep it legal.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

I am lucky if I get two years

If you want long lasting go with stainless.

it will be expensive but pay for itself in how long it lasts.

Here in the great Brine belt the Aluminized steel pipe does not hold up being down south it should last longer.

Odin

Totally guessing here but I imagine there isn't a loss of power when you have no Cat on a 2.25 system. It's probably a slight loss of low to mid range torque because of a lack of backpressure.
A slight loss of torque on a 4WD rig with a 4 cylinder engine is definitely not desirable, especially if it's combined with an automatic transmission.

Look at the headers description to find out how thick the metal is, the thicker the better.
Not only will thicker material last longer but it will also be quieter under the hood. Thicker materials also tend to cost more.

Though I've never had a set of headers with the ceramicoat treatment I've had friends did. Some of the headers were purchased new from the manufacturer with the coating and others were sent in to have it done, several different shops were used. The one thing they had in common is that they all eventually had spots where it came off.


Stainless steel if you want it to last but like Wyoming mentioned $$$.
When it comes time to do the system on my 91 2wd 5spd 22RE I'm sticking with a Toyota manifold for money and longevity.

tj884Rdlx

"I imagine there isn't a loss of power when you have no Cat on a 2.25 system."

What I've read indicated otherwise, that the exhaust actually becomes too free flow, and the truck goes nowhere up hills. I definitely don't want to shoot myself in the foot.

This is what I'm hoping people with experience will tell me about. =)

tj884Rdlx

I've also read if you stick with the OEM manifold, custom build the downpipe because that's the real restriction point in the system and 2.25 behind it won't matter to much without fixing this. Idk if this is worth the effort either. I'll formulate a plan as more info comes.

donomite49

My 22r gained power bottom mid and top with header and exhaust, no cat.

The stock exhaust had leaks so wasn't at it's best either.

I put a cold air intake on at the same time too so I don't know if that made any difference.

Odin

Definitely not a valid comparison.

thefishguy77

iTrader: (1)

Depending on your exhaust dictates where the power will be. With back pressure you will have more low end power. With less back pressure you will pull harder on the top end. These motors develops most of their power in the head not the exhaust. Also cold air intakes and supra ittakes tend to bring the motor more alive on the top end at the sacrafice of bottom end power.

When I want actuall answers I call up motor builders. A buddy of mine and engnbldr both have told me almost the exact same thing regarding exhaust and intake mods for the 22re motor. As well as power being made in the head.

If you want more power call up engnbldr and tell him where you want the power and what your planning on doing with it. Then he will recommend a cam maybe new head then you will have a big squirrel under the hood but it's still a squirrel. IMHO

kawazx636

iTrader: (3)

tj884Rdlx, I'll give you my take on your situation, but I want to clear something up for you guys on "Back Pressure" - you can take it or leave it, but I figured that you all should know the facts. Engines do not like restrictions on air flow coming in or going out - things like air filters, intake designs, port designs, exhaust manifold/header designs, catalytic converters, mufflers and exhaust size/design all affect air flow through an engine. The ultimate goal in any 4-Stroke engine is to get the air in and out as efficiently as possible so you want your exhaust to be able to handle the air/fuel that is coming into the engine, combusting/expanding and leaving the engine in a manner that is not choking the engine nor is it allowing gaps (too much flow) in the exhaust. The proper flow of exhaust on most engines produce what is called a scavenging effect. When an engine is running it essentially pulses so in the exhaust there are little breaks of air in that create a vacuum. That vacuum helps "pull" the next pulse of exhaust gases through and out of the exhaust system and optimizes exhaust velocity. If your exhaust is too big then the vacuum isn't as great and you loose the vacuum effect and exhaust velocity. If your exhaust is too small then the engine itself is doing more work on the exhaust stroke to help push those gases out. Just think about it, if you put "back pressure" on your engine then it is essentially slowing down and decreasing the efficiency of the exhaust stroke of each piston thus robbing the intake, compression and combustion stroke of the other pistons and robbing over all power, efficiency and performance. Many people say "back pressure" when the should be using terms like scavenging or exhaust velocity.

Now here is the kicker... In an engine, your exhaust setup stays the same while your fuel/air intake is very dynamic. Without having a sophisticated system of exhaust dump gates to adjust your exhaust to your intake, it is impossible to match your exhaust to your intake in order to maximize power throughout the engine's RPM range. That being the case, you need to set up your exhaust for your particular use. If you want low end torque and power then you would want to have a smaller diameter exhaust to maximize the exhaust velocity at lower RPM but you will lose power and efficiency and will put more stress on the engine at higher RPM. If you want more high end horsepower then you will need a larger diameter exhaust to handle the extra flow but you sacrifice low end torque and efficiency. This is why you hear the term "power band" and why that power band is typically in the mid RPM range - because the engine and exhaust are tuned to best produce power in the mid range thus sacrificing a little on the low side and a little on the high side to accommodate the RPM range the engine most frequently operates in.

Now for your restrictions... anything that isn't straight out is a restriction: the exhaust pipe itself, catalytic converter, muffler, etc. That's why most all drag cars and race cars run straight headers or short pipes dumped off the side of the car. Catalytic converters are there for emissions purposes, mufflers make the exhaust quiet and piping gets the exhaust to where it needs to go so you have a catalytic converter to please the EPA, a muffler to not piss off your neighbors and piping to keep the heat and exhaust fumes away from the engine compartment and cabin.

As for your headers/exhaust manifold... they simply organize the exhaust coming out of the engine. In order to maximize the scavenging effect, you want your header tubes to be of equal length going into the collector tube (that's why you see all kinds of crazy bends in some of these headers out there - especially the Tri-Y's). This ensures that the exhaust is organized in the same "order" that it came out of the engine. If they aren't ordered properly then you could essentially have two "pulses" of exhaust entering the collector tube at the same time trying to occupy the same area causing gaps and inconsistencies in your exhaust velocity.

So to answer your questions:
#1: Cast iron manifolds are fickle little buggers. Some last forever some don't. There are many more impurities in cast metals so it is hard to say which ones may last longer than another, but if I had to put my money on a cast manifold, I would go with OEM Toyota. Another issue is that cast metal is typically thicker than drawn tubing. Since it is thicker it has the ability to heat and cool unevenly - that's why cast iron is more likely to crack. I would go with a quality stainless header. Doug Thorley, LCE and TG Rock Rippers are all good choices. I've even heard good things about OBX headers. The key would be stainless steel and equal length tubing.

#2: Depending on what you want to do with your truck will determine your tubing size. I would say 2"-2.5" based on your needs. 2" would yield lower end torque, 2.25" would likely be your mid to upper end power and 2.5" would be more of a high end power. Most 22R/RE trucks (including mine) do well with 2.25" piping

#3: I am a big fan of eliminating emissions - if your local laws allow it. My truck runs GREAT without all the emissions BS, but I also have a 22R. I am not as familiar with the 22RE so I'm not sure how dependent the engine's computer is on emissions sensors. But you did mention possibly removing the air injection, but keeping the EGR - that isn't really a possibility since without the air injection your EGR is pretty much worthless. I would nix the catalytic converter unless the 22RE needs a downstream O2 sensor to function properly (again, I'm a 22R guy so you'll want to check with some 22RE guys that have desmogged before). Like I said, my engine is completely desmogged and runs excellent! I have great power, good fuel economy and it doesn't leave a trail of fumes driving down the road.

#4 - Get as much new, quality stuff as possible! Definitely need exhaust studs and nuts so you can get a proper torque on them when you bolt on the headers. For an exhaust manifold gasket, if you can get an OEM gasket then that would be great. If not, I know the Rock Ripper's come with a good gasket. You want the one with the aluminum heat shield thing coming off the top of it. Aftermarket O2 sensors are garbage, no matter what brand or make vehicle they are for. I'm not sure what the aftermarket companies do to make such crappy sensors, but you should always get factory O2 sensors. They'll cost you, but you won't have to replace them once a year.

Here are the specs for the exhaust on my '83 Pickup with a 22R:
-Trail Gear Stainless Rock Ripper Headers
-Stainless 2.25" flex pipe (where the Cat would be - helps reduce stress on the header studs from the exhaust movement and vibrations)
-2.25" piping -Thrust Welded muffler
-Down turned tip behind the roll pan (can't see the exhaust from behind)

I welded up my exhaust out of sections of tubing from my local parts store so I could see how everything would fit and function, but I eventually want to rebuild it with stainless tubing. Below are some pictures of how mine is setup.

Rock Ripper headers:


Braided flex pipe coming off the headers:




Everything is tucked up fairly high:


Can't see the exhaust tip from the rear:

donomite49

That pretty much says it all right there..I vote sticky.

My desmogged 22re had no problems.

Gotta say that is one beautiful first gen pickup.

Odin

You did a pretty good job explaining exhaust velocities 636. That's way more typing than I like to do so I keep it simple.


If someone really wants to get into tuning their header tube diameters and lengths there's a very good program available. Pipemax has been available for a few years now. It costs more than an average person will want to spend on it but it takes several things into account.
Volumetric efficiency, bore, stroke, connecting rod length/ratio, compression, valve diameter, port diameter & length etc.
It's pretty much for serious power and torque producers.

Here's a readout and as you can see it's quite involved.

tj884Rdlx

Wow, thanks Dave for taking the time to post. I appreciate all the info.

So you are like me, unfamiliar with how removing emissions systems will affect the computer. I've desmogged my twin-carbed Yamaha, but there's no EFI computer to cry about lack of signals of a dozen missing sensors. Hopefully this info I will eventually find.

I never go above 4k rpm. That's where I shift. I am in the 3k range most of the time. So do I want low, mid, or high rpm enhancement? Mid, right? So a tri-y stainless header? Ugh so much $ for recycled flatware...

I like the flex pipe. My VWs had them and I wondered about it to reduce stress transferred to the manifold between the engine and the suspended system below. Since this is my second failed exh Mani.

Getting close to GO time for ordering parts and finding an installer. Not very much more confident about what parts to go with yet... Getting there...

osv

i think that 22re's have a factory support bracket that attaches from the bottom of the exhaust manifold to the engine block, i believe? it's the opposite of the support bracket that's attached to the intake manifold.

see if your truck has both of those, before condemning the system in general... another possibility is that the exhaust pipe was hanging off of the exhaust manifold, and putting too much vibration or pressure on it... were the exhaust manifold nuts overtorqued? don't run a factory exhaust gasket, they totally suck, what you want is a remflex gasket, just be sure and get the smog version that has the cutouts that let exhaust gases back into the egr.

rockauto sells factory exhaust pipe pieces, and you should be able to pick up a used exhaust manifold at the junkyard, maybe have a machine shop plane it flat, although with the remflex it's probably not necessary.

tj884Rdlx

Remflex over OEM hmm? OK thx!

tj884Rdlx

OK so my money tree just bloomed and I'm finally ready to buy some stuff. Here's what I'm thinking:

LCE header - there's a video showing some unhappiness with the current DT flange construction, vs everything I've read about the LCE is positive feedback from installers. But I've also seen dyno tests indicate that hp and torque gains don't even show up until after 4k rpm on either header design vs stock manifold. So I'm not too concerned about not getting a 4-2-1. But I'm nixing the cast iron part for steel based on anticipated durability. The additional $200 hopefully will pay for itself in life span.

2.25 cat - keeping it and the heated O2 right in front of it, for compatibility with my 88 EFI cpu.

Magnaflow 22 - this is a stainless muffler, and the longer the quieter so 22".

2.25 aluminized pipe - most shops here couldn't bend stainless. But the one guy who could, said don't even bother in this part of the country (GA). He had a '90 22re PU outside so I valued his honest opinion on this vs upselling me needlessly. He said as long as you paint the welds the stuff holds up fine.

Emissions - I'm better understanding the system, so I'm going to eliminate the air injection and the egr, but keep the cat and O2. LCE phone tech explained it simply for me. I appreciated that 5 min chat.

I'll buy their stud kit and whatever block off parts are needed.

Not sure yet on - OEM manifold gasket vs the Remflex product that's recommended. Supposedly the remflex eliminates retorque concerns. Really?

Problem is this may cost $1200. But I'm pretty sure I'm going to bite the bullet and make purchases tomorrow. Time to sleep on it...

Second thoughts welcome!

bootscootboogie

iTrader: (1)

Hogansville is about 45 minutes south of Atlanta, and we have a shop called Ball Tire & Services, these guys are really legit. They do everything from SASs to frame off restorations. They're big into jeeps but they do Toyotas. They've been here a long time so they must be doing it right. Just a suggestion. Good luck duder.

tj884Rdlx

Thanks for the tip man!

I'd be taking a trip down there if I didn't find the guy I met yesterday. I found him in a corvette forum, he built some custom headers and full exhaust for a new vette which looked impressive in the pictures. When I went to the shop, there was no sign, this is a strictly word-of-mouth business I guess. Inside, he's working on a Ferrari Mondial, a 69 Camaro, a Harley, a power boat, and some crazy custom propane mudder. Then he comes out to look at my truck and refers to his own 90 22re pickup that he did exhaust for. So I felt like I was in good hands. And its up by me in Hiram, one town over.

But I'll keep that name handy because I've been to half a dozen supposed experts and they've all disappointed me so far.

highonpottery

iTrader: (1)

I think everyone you look at for headers will have positive feedback - even just a sound change would make most customers happy.

Just to add one more header to the mix - Stan's Headers. They're one of the few companies that makes the tri-y header for 22r-series engines vs all the 4-1 headers. It's cheaper than DT too.

Had I known about Stan's before, I'd likely have given them a try when I did my exhaust a couple years ago. DT was too pricey for me and I didn't want a 4-1 LCE/other exhaust when stock is 4-2-1 and makes more sense to me. So I just stuck with stock tri-y header/downpipe setup, spliced in 2" pipe behind the "Y" of downpipe, to a 2" high flow CAT, to 2.25" outward with a high flow Magnaflow turbo muffler. It's pretty quiet but definitely deeper and I think I noticed a slight power gain, not much though.

I think you'll be happy no matter which route you go. Ferrari guy sounds awesome, but expensive!