Works for me But you might want to say "a couple of friends" hehehheh


When you get to be my age, you can't help but have networked a little along the way.

I just got off the phone with the office of The Honorable Adam Smith, who is my representitive in the US House of Representitives. I will be following up with a letter...

 

Now if we could get a class action lawsuit against the circus...
To compensate for lost time and energy, buying of supplies, perishables, ect...

Dreaming here, but I'd like to stick a cattle prod up you know where since they stuck a hot coal under this event.

 

Ranger Doug just wrote down "Mark Pulver + 3" onto his signup sheet for Tuesday's meeting.

I told him that we camp down there all the time and we're interested to hear what comes from the meeting. He thanked me for my concern, and that was about it.



CARAVAN!

 

I wonder if we should consider carpooling so as to not give away our motive and to save on gas. Plus it would be fun to chat on the way over.

Think about it.

I am outta here for the weekend. I am headed to do a little camping in the woods and a bit of scenery scoping... But don't worry, it's not an "organized" thing.

Chat with you Sunday evening.

 

Well, since the forest circus almost cost me a weekend and a bit of money, I think Im going to go and scream and jump up and down. How do I get to the ranger station, IE where is it at? Also, the 9th just happens to be a saturday, so if we go down for the meeting, why not make it a wheeling adventure?!!!!

 

I don't know where the station is, but I'm sure Rob/Mike/Shane/etc will tell us before the meeting.

Just to be clear, the meeting that features The Topic is on Tuesday night (the 5th) at 7pm. The reference to the 9th in the message that Rob posted is about a workshop.

 

About how far would this be from the Safeway in Enumclaw...?

I would love to go, as I believe strongly in this...but I don't get off work (in downtown Seattle) until 5PM.

Jim

 

Even though I was not going to the Yotajam this year, I did want to say thanks for the work you (and several others) put into it. A lot of work (I've been monitoring the posts here in YotaTech..).
Really makes you wonder if contacting the Forest Service PRIOR to the event is worth it. By trying to do the right thing, they killed your event! Waited until there was no time left to obtain a permit, or even cancel the event in a 'timely' matter. Maybe everyone would have been better off simply showing up, without making any calls to the FS!
It's no damn wonder how the Gov't bureaucracies get such a bad rap...they EARN 'em.

Jim

 

That's a good idea Jim.
I think for next year, or any big overnight event up there, we just plan it as we did here, then show up.

Keep ranger rick out of the loop.

As far as they are concerned, we're just a big group out camping with our church

This guy had a bug up his rear for some reason.

 

Received a reply from Ranger Randall Shepard, on why Yotajam was cancelled:

The website describing your event was brought to our attention by a cooperating agency. We examined the site and were concerned by the level of planning and apparent organization for an "informal" gathering. Frankly, it had all of the indicators of being an event where entry fees would typically be charged and the organizers would provide services to the participants in return. Not having the organizer(s) directly identified, we replied via email about our concerns. Issuing a permit involves a rather lengthy process to satisfy all of the items we are required to address. Thus, at the late date we became aware of your event, it was impossible to gather all of the necessary information and subsequent clearances to issue a permit. We issue a number of recreation event permits on the district each year. We receive heavy recreation use through out the summer. Our primary concerns with planned events are to assure that they occur in suitable locations, adequate facilities and support are
provided and potential conflicts with other users are minimized.

I apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced, but there was no time for negotiation. When something walks like a duck and looks like a duck, it requires compelling evidence to prove otherwise. We could not reasonably verify your information and chose to err on the conservative side. We would welcome the opportunity to review any proposals you or your group may have for future events. Please provide us with detailed written information well in advance and we will process your request. If indeed no permit is required, we can provide you with verification of that as well and avoid the difficulties we experienced this time.

Randy Shepard, District Ranger
Naches Ranger District
10237 US Highway 12, Naches, WA 98937
509-653-2205 ext. 227, FAX 509-653-2638
email:rdshepard@fs.fed.us

 

I still say to keep the circus out of our business.
Many go up there all the time, and with just as big a crowd as the one that was planned here.

Next years event should keep them out of it all the way.
Everyone just show up and have a good time.

 

A "cooperating agency"? WHAT??? Like, a Jeep club?

So... who's coming down tomorrow night for the meeting? Right now it looks like Rob and I.

 

Whoa..... Who would this mysterious 'cooperating agancy' be??

 

Unbeleivable!

So, he would prefer if 1000 people just showed up, rather than there being some structure... yet later on he implies the need for organization to minimize conflicts and to provide facilities.

Except that there was no mention of any fee on the site, nor of a fee on any other event that WATTORA or YotaTech have EVER held. They could have asked, but did not...

It was PLAINLY listed as a WATTORA event and I am PLAINLY identified as the President/contact person for WATTORA on the site. In addition, I replied within 10 minutes of receiving their mail and answered the questions that they did ask, but they then stalled 24 hours before replying to that mail. In addition, there was a "Contact" email address on the info page as there is with ALL WATTORA events. They used this link to contact me originally.

They were informed TWO MONTHS in advance and asked for input on an event that by published Forest Circus regulations DID NOT require a permit. We had plenty of time to confirm that even after they started making threats.

BS... see above. There was plenty of time. THEY chose not to.

No! You cannot judge a book by it's cover. It would have required a minimum of effort on their part to confirm that no fee was being charged and that the event didn't meet the bar, but they didn't bother. They made a mountain out of a mole hill and are now trying to justify that.

LIAR! They didn't bother to even try. They made NO inquiries as to the nature of the event. It went from "pleast contact us", to "no permit will be issued" in 24 hours. They received prompt replies to all correspondance with me and then sat on my replies for a day.

Conservative!!?? How so? I would say that threatening legal action against an event that you had previously approved, then cancelling that event is ANYTHING but conservative. It was deceitful and lazy.

I am REALLY ticked... somebody reply to this guy as I am so furious I could just spit just now. He probably got word back from his army of sheriffs that we were pretty good guys after all and now needs to justify his squandering of thousands of dollars of tax payer's dollars to search for an event that he himself ordered cancelled.

Randy Shepard, District Ranger
Naches Ranger District
10237 US Highway 12, Naches, WA 98937
509-653-2205 ext. 227, FAX 509-653-2638
email:rdshepard@fs.fed.us

 

 

I love it!
Someone print out that SOB and mail it to him

 

My response to Randall Shepard (Rob's rant framed the basis for it....)

Randall,

Thank you for replying to my email and your explaination of the Forest Service's side of the situation. However, there are several points in your email that I disagree with and/or would like further clarification on, and I will address them one at a time for simplicity sake.

1) Could you specify who the cooperating agency was that described by the event? Due to the ramifications of the event being canceled, I believe that the organizers have a right to know who their "accusers" are, and what implications were made by said "cooperating agency."

2) After examining the website, you should have noticed several things. Firstly, while it may have had indicators of an event which would charge fees, there is no mention of such fees in any of the details regarding this event, because there weren't any. Secondly, Robert Perrin is clearly listed as the President of WATTORA, the club who was arranging the details of this get-together. He is also listed as the contact person for the event. In fact, it was through this website that the Forest Service initially contacted Rob to inform him that the event was cancelled. He has replied in very quick fashion to every email sent to him by the Forest Service in order to rectify the situation as quickly as possible. To state that the organizers were not directly identified is erroneous.

3) You state "...at the late date we became aware of your event." Again, this is erroneous, since organizers had two specific conversations with a Ranger (First name Mike, I apologize for not knowing his last name). A full account of the nature of the event, in regards to the number of attendees, the schedule for the weekend, was given to Mike, both a couple months ago, and again just two weeks ago when a group of the organizers examined the campsite and the trail run. On both occassions, it was stated by the Forest Service Ranger that no permit was needed. We were not collecting fees, and we were substantially below the number of attendees that would have necessitated a permit. It appears that as a group, we would have been within our rights to merely show up en masse, without any warning, in an "unorganized" fashion, and avoided this altogether. However, because both WATTORA and Yotatech advocate safety and responsible offroading, we have been penalized for doing so.

4) After the Jamboree was canceled, I spent the weekend in the Naches district anyways, since I had already requested the time off from work, and had made a significant financial investment into my vehicle over the last couple of months in preparation for running the Naches trail. Surprisingly enough, I ran into a small number of other Toyota owners in a similar situation, and we decided to go offroading together. During the weekend, we observed the following:
a) An organized event of the type you mentioned above, being held by a large group of jeep owners, who most assuredly did not have a permit for their event
b) Numerous unlicensed motorcycles
c) A number of vehicles traveling in vast excess of the posted speed limit on Forest service roads.

At no point were there any Rangers taking action against these offenses. We did, however, have interaction with two Sherrifs, who were extremely pleasant to interact with. It was very clear after to speaking to them that they had been called in specifically to enforce the ban on the "Yotajam," an event that had clearly been canceled two days earlier. This was clearly a waste of taxpayer's dollars, particularly since other offenses were left untouched (see a,b,c). They were glad to see that we were off-roading in a safe and responsible fashion, and quickly allowed us continue enjoying our time in the Naches.

Despite of everything, I had a fantastic time in the Naches. It is unfortunate that through mismanagement of public land that it is becoming increasingly difficult for responsible individuals to take advantage of the beauty of this state.

I look forward to your opinion in regard to the details above.

Respectfully yours,

Dr. David Bienvenue

 

That is a thing of beauty. I decided to skip writing today until I regain my composure. Every draft I write up ends up becoming a rant and that is not the image I want to project.

I especially like the fact that you used your title. I had planned to mention that the majority of our participants were to be professionals, with excellent educations and incomes. We are not your average gang of drunk, forest disrespecting rednecks... I also like that you tossed out that both clubs are organized and safety oriented. It's funny that they would go to so much trouble to ban us, when historically we have been the good guys, participating in trail clean ups, educating other groups, taking care of our own, adhering to the off road rules... etc...

Frustrating... very frustrating...

 

Good job Dr. David...looks very similar to some of the legal dribble that comes outta my workplace.

That's the best way to go about it, yelling at them won't do squat...but calmly and methodically proving them wrong should at least bring about an apology with some admonition of guilt (on their part).

Jim

 

I'm usually pretty self-conscious about throwing the Dr. thing out there. In general, in my field the Dr. title is rarely used anymore, except on written material, but not usually in day-to-day conversations. I didn't mean to come off acting superior, but it does help in certain situations to throw those two letters before my name.

I agree with keeping things civil, we'll be more likely to be heard.