Well, let me put it this way. A SAS'd and lifted toyota 4runner on 37's is still less dangerous on the road at 70mph than an F-350 Dualie that's bone stock at 70 mph. Still, you do have a valid point. If its against the law, its against the law, i'll be sure to stay out of TN. In colorado, they don't even enforce the "tires outboard of the fenders" that we may or may not have on the books. Thank goodness.

We aren't looking to get big trucks off the trail, a truck with lockers and big, tires, and low gearing is going to tear up the trail a whole lot less than a stock truck thats open that spins tires at every rock. The big truck drives over, leaving just a tire mark, no digging, no dust cloud.

Anyway, do what's right by you. You are trying to make it a safer place out there, and i can respect that, though i still dissagree with you.

 

I think its a little different and a tangent for the main issue at hand as that is a traffic issue. Just because it is a large/illegal on-road vehicle does not mean it is going to be ripping up the trails. Many rigs are not street legal and are trailered to the trail where they are fine and legal. You might as well forward the link to the how fast have you gone thread which admits breaking the law. Not saying that your view is not just, but it is just a little of a tangent

 

Lets keep this on topic. Please no more talk about on road laws. If you'd like to, you can start a new thread. Thanks.

 

Action 1: driving off a posted trail

Action 2: posting pics on the internet

Action 3: saying it was all right to OBVIOUSLY take a destructive action

It was actions 2 and 3 that led to banning AFAIK. If there was any other poo flinging that sped up the process, apologies.

Getting him would meant just hassling from the onset. He was asked and told gently, then it was defended.

Cool sticker, eh?

 

There are a lot of really good people out there that consider themselves "greenies" or environmentalists, bummer you have never met even one. None that I know would consider someone a monster just for wanting to enjoy the wilderness, whether in a 4x4 or on foot. Think about how many times you've been on a trail ride and someone in the group was drinking, or littering, or firing off a gun without knowing the target. Those of us that care will say something to the offending party, but if others have seen it happen, the association with offroaders has been made and the damage is done. You may say the problem isn't with "us", but that person was part of the group and therefore part of "us" in the public eye. I'm not trying to argue for or against anyone's point here, I'm trying to say that in my opinion and experience, there might be a possibility of common ground that would be best for all sides. In reading through the information from Tread Lightly, I can't help but think that there had to be some "environmentalists" that had a hand in creating that. Again, my 2 cents.

 

Greg, I appreciate your point of view here. The only way to make this work is through a collaborative effort. The perspectives of environmental groups, land management agencies, the public, the recreationalists, the ranchers, the forest product community, and local rural communities must all be heard and engaged to create plans that will work for us all. Yes, collaboration implies that everyone must compromise a little. IMHO, that's better than one group being compromised a lot.

Here's an example of what the USDA FS is doing in WA Collaborative Forest Planning Announcement.

Thanks for posting.

 

My thoughts also.

 

Really? That can't happen! Greenies just don't shut down trails cause they want to! Nah you must be thinking of something else

So if I read that correctly Bob, they are shutting down the trail cause somebody cleared a path to go around an obsticle that no one can get by? So basically like I said before, these people are going to close down your trails REGAURDLESS of what you do to be responsible? Clearing a path to continue a trail is irresponsible? Heck Intrepid has a hard time keeping his trails open by being responsible and adhering to the tread lightly program! So what does that tell you? These jerks are going to close down the trails regaurdless of what you people do. You may get away with it for awhile by contacting your local senator or a signing a petition but mark my words, they ARE going to shut you guys down.

James

 

James,

Your point seems to be "They'll close it anyways, so screw this tread lightly stuff". If that is not an accurate characterization, i must not be understanding your post above. but if it is, i do not agree with it. here's why, using the martinez canyon example:

Purportedly, the trail was going to be closed down because of vandalism caused by non-off roaders. Seems that some other members have a fairly decent relationship with the BLM guys there and found out that the trail would not be closed (steve's post).

had the vandalism been caused by off roaders, then there is absolutely no case for the BLM to even entertain a discussion of keeping the trail open. but since it was made clear that it was not off roaders who caused this, and that the off road community was willing to help (free of charge) to restore the damaged cabin(s), they were building a positive relationship with the BLM that *could* increase the likelihood of keeping trails open if such stupidity occurred again.

its all about respecting the land, the trails, the rules, and building partnerships with the people who control the access for us and for future generations. if we have a "damned if we do, damned if we dont" attitude, i cannot imagine that being good for anyone. i just dont understand why you seem to be missing that point.

bob

 

Okay JamesD, i understand that you think everything will get shut down anyway. Maybe, maybe not. But okay, a fair enough evaluation.

Now here is the real question. What is the big deal with not going off trail? How is what we are asking such a HUGE inconvineince to you? Or are you such a spoiled brat that you will not cooperate just becasue someone is asking you to? I hope not, because that is downright childish, and believe it or not, i thought more of you than that.

We asked a member to stay on trail IN THE FUTURE, and only admonished him after he defended his actions, and the really lit in after other members defended his actions. In this thread, we are simply asking that folks stay on the trail. When you are on the trail, whether you have 44's or 28s, mud tires or street, tall gears or short, 10 inch SAS, or stock, have fun. We aren't trying to limit anyones fun, we aren't trying to keep folks from playing hard, but just do it on the trail. Thats it.

If this is too much to ask, or you just can't sit down at the table and discuss, then find another forum where shutting down trails is a priority. Here we are about keeping them open as long as possible.

 

Doesn't "you guys" include all four wheelers like yourself? And if so, wouldn't you like to keep our trails open for our children to enjoy. We can accomplish this by respecting those guideline set before us by Tread Lightly.

 

WOW! i read the thread that started this and ALL of this one...WOW

kinda like rockets ticket thread!

 

Most of the trails I go on are privately owned and I have permission to go on them. The other trails are state owned and they aren't designated an off-road trail but people have been wheeling on them for years. So to answer your question, no. Besides, the only "legal" trails that I know of that is somewhat close to me is Paragon. Their may be trails up by me, but I cannot find any information on the web about these trails and nobody I knows doesn't know either. I know where a bunch of 4 wheeler trails and snowmobile trails are though but no off-road trails for trucks.

James

 

True true, if there are any off-road trails around here.... no one I know has run them. What we do around here is mud bog. There is a big open field of public land next to a flood plain so there's always mud. And from what I've seen.... the definition of mud bogging is *to tear schit up*... so I don't know how Tread Lightly affects that.

 

I agree with what you've said here Greg & I will be the first one to say something if I see something on the trail that could get our "hobby" shut down. I'm the same way at the local gun range. Some knucklehead does something stupid, I call a cease fire & remove his weapon.

What I don't see is the give & take from the green side. They take & we give. I can understand the frustration of a few members posts here. I just fail to see how an olive branch extended to the other side will do anything other than admit defeat & hasten trail closings...that said, by treading lightly we help our cause, not hurt it.

 

Whole olive TREES have been extended in the past. That is exactly what got us where we are today.

When the other side is bent upon your complete elimination, there's not really room for compromise. They are certainly not extending them our way and it's time we get organized and fight back.

 

This debate in my opinion will never be settled. Your Freedom of choice does not apply here. If we don't use common sense, than all we do right will be wasted.

Change what you can, accept what you can not, true wisdom is knowing the difference.

I know I have wasted too much time reading about how destroying our land is a given right and that it is going to be taken away anyway so why not do what we want. To those I say......Go right ahead, but do it somehwere else. YT is a family oriented Forum that adheres to the principles of Tread Lighty and if you can't abide by that then go find somewhere you fit in because you don't fit in here.

Being a Vendor it is hard to express my opinion for fear of losing customers. But I would rather lose a customer that destroys what I believe in than stay silent and know I am helping them destroy what we work so hard to keep.

 

Well said Phil and Rob. No it won't be settled, too many folks are too close minded to care. It must be fought for, so we'll keep going, even in the face of idiocy.

 

I work in the environmental field and am an avid OHV enthusiast. I strongly believe in the Tread Lightly principles because a) I appreciate nature and b) I appreciate the open trails we have and don't want them closed. Generally speaking, it's not the online OHV community (like everyone here) that are the problem, it's the other abusers. The sad part is that all of us pay for these abuses even though we are not too blame.

I've ran the Martinez Mine Trail in AZ and guess what, nobody in my group vandalized anything or went off the trail, that doesn't mean it isn't happening daily out there by the toothless idiots that are not affiliated with any online forum. The folks wanting to close areas often have a point, that is the hard part to swallow. We don't have the resources as a community to police our trails. Would you confront a group of drunks tearing the hell of on area? I'm sure some would, but most wouldn't.

The several million acres of BLM and National Forest land we have in Northern NM are patrolled by just a handful of law enforcement. I really doubt any of them ever go off the highway. The BLM and USFS do not have the funding to adequately enforce land use policies and the outcome is closure. When you write letters to your local BLM or USFS manager asking them to keep a trail open, I hope you tell them that you also have sent letters to congress demanding better funding for their agencies.

I sympathize with MNBOY, it's hard to wear two hats and try to develop compromise because both sides (whether they are right or not) feel that they have done more than their fair share to compromise.

Great thread.

 

Want to see what the average person out there thinks off off roaders? Wonder why I am so adament that we can't afford to just stand by and "let it slide"?

If you aren't doing your part to ACTIVELY keep the trails open and change our reputation, YOU are part of the problem.

Here's the head start the greenies have;

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rema...7162~mode=flat