Albuquerque Jim

Just days after Corey announced that YotaTech is proud to be an official partner/member with the Tread Lightly Organization due to our Land Usage & Responsibility forum we have a post like this, which was meant to show UBERYOTA's experience wheeling and has turned into a debate of sorts over the Tread Lightly guidelines. UBERYOTA, I sincerely apologize for using your thread for this purpose. This message is certainly not directed entirely towards you. However, I cannot let this go without calling attention to the greater YotaTech community for input.

Thread Summary: After UBERYOTA posted some pics of wheeling freejake3 quickly picked up on the fact that UBERYOTA and his friend drove off the designated trail and into the stream, apparently to show the flex of their rigs. When this action was pointed out as a violation of Tread Lightly guidelines parties on both sides of the debate have come forth to share their opinions on the matter.

In my opinion this debate is cause for great concern to our community. As Corey has so eloquently stated in his announcement of YotaTech's partner/member status with the Tread Lightly organization, "It is all of our responsibility to make sure that our public lands stay open to off roading to give us a place to get out and enjoy nature in our Toyotas. If we do not adhere to the Tread Lightly concept, we will see more and more land shut down from irresponsible drivers" (Corey, 2006).

It is truly disappointing to me to see members posting that they "believe in Tread Lightly" but we are taking it too seriously. This is a serious matter. By not taking this seriously you are essentially taking a stand in opposition of the only guidelines that have a chance of saving some of our trails for our sons and daughters to enjoy in the years to come.

What do the rest of you think? Is driving off the designated route into a stream OK? If so, does that carry with it the impllication that it is OK to violate the guidelines in other ways? Have those members posting in favor of Tread Lightly over reacted to the guidelines; have we taken them too seriously? Are the Tread Lightly guidelines just suggestions, not meant for everyone in every part of the country?

I would like to hear from our community on this important topic. Remember this is a public forum, please share your thoughts in an appropriate respectable manner. This post is meant to be a discussion used to educate and determine/clarify a community perspective on Tread Lightly guidelines since it appears that we all do not agree...please

Strap22

I watched that post unfold yesterday and I was very disappointed in the way some of the YT members responded. I am by no means a "tree hugger" but I do have respect for what Tread Lightly stands for. I am sure at one time or another we have all done something that could be seen as not following the Tread Lightly principles and for some it could be completely innocent. But when you don't do something to correct it that is like two wrongs don't make a right. The thing that bothered me the most about the post were the "it doesn't apply to me" attitude. Yota Tech is a great place to hang out and meet a lot of good people. The reason so many join in the first place is to be with like minded people and to learn more about their Toyotas and the whole off roading experience. I hope out of this thread others will learn that we all need to take care of our resources or someone else will. If someone else has to do it for us, that will take away our ability to enjoy what we all are here for...I am not trying to fuel this debate but I will give my opinion.

Albuquerque Jim

Thanks Phil, well articulatd.

Bob_98SR5

man, i thought i kept up on all the threads!

after reading the linked thread, i do agree that as members of this forum, we all have to do our part to stay on the trails and abide by the guidelines of the tread lightly organization. in my opinion, these rules are set up to:

"Preserve the environment FIRST"

anything else is secondary. and saving access to trails is only a byproduct of doing the above.

remember folks, perception is reality too. now for the sake of argument, let's say going off a trail at any time into a stream is permissible. but reality says that any radical environmental group that gets a hold of pictures like uber posted will be used against off roaders. looking at those pics, there is a clear drop off that uber and co took, and in my humble of humblest opinions, that does not look good...even if it is permitted. not to mention, there is a clear environmental impact of vehicles going through the water (i.e. gear or axle oil entering the water system when fording water)

in terms of media access, funding and organization, there is no doubt that groups like the sierra club trumps any off road organization. and speaking to the media access part, there is no doubt in my mind too, that most writer, edtiors as well as the editorial page of any city's newspaper, will always favor the environmental lobby more so than ours. i think we all know that we are just a very, very tiny minority of people who take our vehicles off road, so the odd are stacked against us in the media and more importantly, in the courtrooms.

here are two recent examples in my local paper of biased reporting. Just look at the title of this first article. Just reading it makes me sick because this writer has not a clue about responsible off roaders, but again, perception is reality and the media does not look too well on off roaders:

Dirt Devils
They tear up the desert, splash through creeks and careen over hills. Just what is driving the rising Off-Road Nation?
http://www.calendarlive.com/printedi...,1915826.story

Idaho's Off Road Uproar - LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail

So the bottom line in my opinion is that we need to strictly abide by the rules of treading lightly. it will be an accumulation of events like this that will lead to our own undoing.

Bob

sswearin1

It's nice to think of myself as a environmentalist, conversationalist AND outdoor enjoyer and user. There are ways to enjoy the outdoors without causing an impact. An observation, there are quite a few younger men and women on this board and unfortunately I was not as respectful in my earlier days as I am now. Some members of any community are going to push the limits and the world is filled with entitled people.

reggie 00

This is one of those catch 22 deals.

The tread lightly ideals are very sound, hold a lot of common sense stuff.

Problem is who decides what? It states do not cross a stream unless it is at a designated forgeing point or the road crosses it. Who is going to go around desginating crossing points. I beilieve a responsible person can make a responsible choices as to whats right and wrong there and it would be greatly dependant to the area. Some areas hold some very hardy stuff while some others are more fragile.
Alot of the item there are cut and dry common sense stuff, some of them are not so black and white.

if i chose to cross a stream and left tracks and someone else saw these tracks does it give them the go ahead to go too? No they need to evaluate just like hopefully the person before them did and then decide.

Trails did not just sprout up. They were laid out and run by people. There should be no reason that if the conditions agree that new trails can not be created.

What we need to do is educate not Dictate.

Work with the forest service personel. Orginize clean up if the knuckleheads are leaving trash and burnt out cars. If there are water crossings spots that are going to cause chaos, fence them off. Contact the ranger/ forest servie person ask them their opinoin on you going out and setting a few posts and some fencing to block off access to this crossing. If it is that importat to you dropping a few dollars on some fencing material should not be a big deal to you right. I see groups/clubs all the time going out and repairing bridges, clearing fallen trees, setting fence post mending gates/fences ect.

I have read the Tread lightly "rules"
I am also i hope a responsible adult who thinks that these are more a guideline than anything else.

Trail closures are inevitable, especialy if people do not get involved in the upkeep and Management of their trails.

I am currently trying to hook up with a couple of clubs in my area so i can not only have people to wheel with but take part in the other asspects like clean ups and the such.


Sorry about spelling and the rambling but this is a vast deep subject that will never get 100% agreement.

Strap22

You have made some very valid points. The problem with the post is the picture appears to be going off the trail for no other reason than to go thru the stream. I am sure they are good people and just used a poor picture to post. There could have been a very good reason for leaving the trail and having to find a another way around. It is just not presented that way in the post. Also from the pictures I couldn't see tracks so to say they made any long term impact is unfair. His post has done some good in the fact, it has brought more awareness to just how important it is for all of us to be mindful of what we are doing and that at anytime a picture can be used against us. IMHO

waskillywabbit

iTrader: (-1)

The generation of entitlement. The rules always apply to other people and are always relevant only if convenient.

Tread Lightly or go away and find another hobby.

Corey

iTrader: (1)

This is the first I have seen this, just got home.
I saw the two pics of the rigs dropping down into the stream, and I think this is where the thin line is.

That to me looks like going off of an established trail, as there is no trail actually leading into the creek.

A week before I got my rig I went on the WATTORA/Toyota Trail Team event that Rob (WATRD) got organized here.

I was in Will's rig and we followed Rob and I think the other guy's name (Jim) with the nicely built older Toyota on a trail.
On the trail it turned into a stream for a ways, then shot up a hill.
http://www.pnw4runners.com/runs/71506/36.jpg
You can see some of the water from the stream on the trail.
This I would consider OK since the trail is the stream.

Now look at the vids I posted here.
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f135/fjc-tellico-videos-92883/
That stream is part of a trail that leads into it.

But looking at the pics in the questionable thread linked here there was no definite trail leading into that stream.
Having wheeled for a while now and getting more educated all the time on this, I myself would not have done it.
It may have been fun, but after reading the guidelines set forth from Tread Lightly and after wheeling with a few veterans like Rob, I myself would not have made the choice to have "dropped" down into that stream.

Dropping down into that stream will leave a permanent mark there and erode more land away from it.
I feel that if Tread Lightly were to see that they would be shaking their heads in disbelief right now.

Also pictures like that will give the greenies/tree huggers more ammunition when they solicit their politicians to get our beloved trails closed down.

Remember, we all need to do our part to keep trails open.

Robinhood150

This is the sierra club's take on off road use:

http://www.sierraclub.org/policy/con...on/offroad.asp

reggie 00

I still do not see why we need to have environmentalist dictate our hobby.

4Wheeling is just like anything else, something that needs to be done responsibly. Tread lightly is just a guideline on how to do this. It is not the Gospel Truth. There are gray areas.

You say soil damage is a reason to close trails? Doesnt just driving the trail it self do that? If we did not drive down that trail for a year it will not be a trail. 2 years later it will probably be hard to tell if it was a trail at all.

Being responsible when you wheel and helping out to keep things in order is what we need.

Sierra club sends solicitors to congress and the senate, so can we, but only if involved. Local clubs and internet clubs help with that.

Are enviromentalist and the fear they seem to be inflicting going to drive our actions for our hobby. Or is education and involvement with gov agencys to guide local wheeling areas going to.

Its not about what the Sierra club thinks, or this or that, its about being responsible.

Was it responsible behavior to go in that stream? No one here can make that judgement unless they go to that area, look at the crossing point and decide for themselves.

Trail or no trail going into the water will cause some kind of effect, be that negative or positive. Is it a reason to close a whole area, NO.

What if crossing at that stream and continuing on from there actually stops people from going farther down the established old trail and that area redevelops and animals return to that area, would it have been worth it then?


I just do not see how new areas can be developed if the Tread Lightly rules are to be so strictly followed. How do you think the trail was started in the first place? are we actually under the impression that someone planned it that way? Did they get permission from the Sierra club to go there, was extensive research done to determin the impact on the enviroment? or did someone or a group of someones actually just go there and keep coming back.

Tread lightly is good, but i do not think it is as Black ad White as some try to make it.

long but jmo.

Bob_98SR5

reggie,

we are in the minority, and thus, we need to keep our stuff so squeaky clean so as not to give the environmental lobby any excuse to limit or eliminate our access. they have the power, not us---and thus, the microscope is on us. even if every single off-road was involved financially and gave as much time as the sierra club-types, we would still be the underdogs. a politician will win hundreds of thousands of votes for campaigns based on the oft-used slogan "saving the environment" and not "saving off road access for off roaders".

so we have to play along and abide by some common sense rules. not to say we are beholden to the SC rules, but to the rules that are outlined by organizations like tread lightly. i mean, if you read them, they are not draconian in anyway. they are really just common sense rules that say to err on the side of caution and being respectful of the environment.

bob

reggie 00

I total agree.

we are in the minority. And we probably will always be there. We definatly will be there if we dont get involved.

What do you think the ratio to gun owners to non gun owners is? I think just looking at the people i know that the non gun owners have it.

Education of not only wheelers but other people help shed some light on the fact that the Sc is kinda fanatical in their rants.

i also agree that the Tread lightly ideals are pretty common sense. And a person should use what god gave em between their ears to decide whats right or wrong.

But we cant point our fingers at that poor kid and say you are wrong in what you did.

As far as being squeeky clean, i would just as soon be my self and try to do whats right than bend my ideals to apease a fanatic.

There is only so much bending a person can do before they too loose sight of who they truly where.


Be responsible in everything you do, and do it because its right and you believe in it.

I served 10 years in the military to make sure people had the right to choose.

Exersice that right.

Educate yourself , involve yourself , enjoy yourself.


Even if we did everything perfect they will still find a reason to close stuff.(they do not like cars period, give them time they will close the roads too.)
Lets give people the real story about what we do. Get involved with the Gov agencys that work and protect the areas you wheel, help them out, it will go a long way.

I guess what i am tring to say is Tread lightly is right in what they put out, and it should not be taken lightly. A person needs to use good ol common sense. And remember you are not the only person around who might want to see or use that. We do need to mind our P's&Q's around Enviromentalists, but not to the point that we let them dictate everything.
We just need to maintain that happy median.

Godzilla

Reading the previous posts brings some good points to the ideal of tread lightly. And it is true that the odds are that the weekend environmentalists will look for anything to shut anything down that hurts mother earth. Reading reggies posts made me think that when the 4x4 clubs have cleanup days that they try and get a local paper there to do a story on it. It can show the side of people enjoying a hobby and doing their part to keep it clean. Not many know about that side since they only hear the negative aspects from ppl who have money to make a stink. Even have a tree plant day or some crazy thing like that.

JamesD

I think 90% of you are taking this WAY out of context. Just wheel your rigs and have fun! Don't tear schit up and you will be fine. I couldn't tell you how many times I created my own trails. The only rule over here is stay off private property and you will be fine. But then again, over here we don't have forest fires or land slides. If you honestly think your rig is destroying the earth cause your not "staying on the trail" then you need to think again. It is not what you run over it is what is coming out of your tailpipe that is hurting the environment.

For the most part if people had trails like most of you have(west coast) then I can see why you would stay on the path but when Uber posted, he really wasn't on a so called "trail" like you guys have. What really gets me about some of you whiners is that you all want to be earth friendly but you drive a gasoline combustion engine! WTF is up with that? Hypocrites? Somebody mentioned a hybrid on the trails and I think that is a good idea, just make sure your battery is charged before you hit the Moab!

James

kwikrnu

IMO, anyone who uses earths precious resources modifying their car to go faster and have bigger wheels and use more gas therefore creating more pollution is environmentally irresponsible. Everyone should drive stock electric or hybrid cars which get 50 mpg instead of 5-10-15-20 year old cars and trucks that are not using new technology to keep the earth clean. These older cars spew harmful contaminents into the air and often leak oil on the ground. Many of the older cars have been modified by removing the catalytic converter. Four wheel drive vehicle use much more of our precious resources because they have big tires use more oil and more metal for their construction.

Even though the above is probabably true if I see a stream and want to go through it I will.

JamesD

But that isn't the point. It is about staying on the trails so you don't run over a flower or a rare frog. Everytime you venture off the trails you are doing damage to the environment. But what I want to know is, the trails had to be made in the first place so initially isn't that destroying mother earth?

If I see a stream I'am going to with it instead of crossing it just to see how far I can go. Last time I checked that was called wheeling.

James

Robinhood150

You guys are completely missing the point. The point is that the greenies believe driving off the trail (driving gas engines, SUVs, big tires, etc) is destoying the environment whether it's true or not. They're the ones who are going to take images out of context and show them to the town hall meeting in montana, colorado, NY, etc. The average people will take in those images and vote accordingly.

You guys need to expand your minds and see the big picture here.

Robinhood150

For you guys in colorado here is a criminal investigation to find the people who decided to make their own trails.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=498379

Corey

iTrader: (1)

That brings up a good point Steve that many in these two threads do not seem to be grasping.

The current trials are there to use now.
They were created by the owners of the lands, the BLM, the forest service personal, they have the rights to do so.

It is NOT our right to take it upon ourselves and "blaze" our own trails.
If it is on your own personal land that you own, yes, you can do it.
But using BLM land, forest service land, and other private land, you have no business trying to cut a new trail.

Would you want someone cutting a trail through your backyard?

If you do not own the land you are wheeling on, plain and simple, respect it or ruin it for everyone else.