aviator

I was bouncing around the web the other day and came across this interesting link from the miata.net forum...

www.electricchargers.com

what they are selling is an electrically driven supercharger.
It seems to be basically an in-line blower that goes between the MAF and the engine.
they are currently targeting the tuner market.
asked for info and they have one for the 3.0... comes with a superchip also...
price $99.00 US plus $10 S&A in US or $25 S&A elsewhere
Company is Northend Performance out of Tacoma WA.
any WA. members want to take a run over there and give the rest of us the scoop?
I'm waiting for more info from company before I pull trigger...
If I pull trigger...
whole idea makes sense to me but why has'nt anybody done this before?
any thoughts?
Aviator

bballchrism

i saw those on ebay

HuskyRunner

kinda seems like B.S. to me...it is essentially a fan that pulls air into your engine, but it would have to be a VERY powerful fan to make any sort of difference. Their claimed hp gains probably come from the chip, and the K&N folter they reccomend.

Texas_Ace

Those are a COMPLETE joke. And yes they are a big seller on ebay.

Basicly they are a low powered yard blower that you mount on the intake. There is no way on earth that it will push more air into your engine then it pulls in at WOT. Therefore it will LOWER your air flow and power.

Just send you $$ to me, i have all sorts of stuff to sell you... LOL

sdstud212001

Yeah i agree that is a hokey a55 setup

ewong

Total BS..

The only "electric" super chager that "looked" like it might work had 2+ "starter motors" bolted to it and it had a HUGE current draw..

Oh yeah - the OTHER electric "supercharger" that DOES IN FACT WORK AND QUITE WELL is available straight from Toyota... Hybrid Highlander (and the new Lexus one too).

Basic rules of Physics (conservation of energy) dicatates that a 5HP gain of "super charging" is gonna take AT LEAST 5HP of motor. Ever see what a 5HP 12v elec motor is gonna look like. Think Starter. Think Winch....Then think what current draw a 5HP motor is gonna take at 12v and you'll see why its just not gonna work w/o violating the laws of physics...

Obey Gravity
Its the LAW.

Thats right kiddos - there's nuthing useful in school.
Dont go to that Math class either - the're covering PV and compound interest today.
Need a Credit Card or a Mortgage

aviator

Yeah I had the feeling it was a load of BS check out the specs I got from them supposedly from an independent lab test...

air pressure....1.256 PSI
Air Flow......... 856 CFM
Power consumption...765 Watts
spooling rate.... 27500 RPM
size 4"x4"x4"

interesting numbers... 765 Watts at 12volts is a whooping 63.75 amps draw OUCH!...
I'd be interested to know what the air flow of a non "boosted" 3.0 with a K&N filter is...

on the air pressure number we can assume that they are talking about boost over atmospheric...
sea level air pressure is @15PSI therefor you are actually feed the engine 16.256 psi not a lot of difference. if you were in denver where the mean atmospheric pressure is slightly less than 15 psi than maybe it would make a bit of difference but still it is not worth the huge hit on electric draw IMO.
definitely not worth the cash or bother...
still a pretty good idea though just needs some more development... a more efficient motor perhaps...
cheers all aviator

aviator

ewong you could use a smaller motor you just need a transformer to step up the voltage and maybe an inverter to provide AC power... again there would be a huge hit on the amp draw which is the more limiting factor of the electrical system...

ewong

Thats exactly what I meant.

AFAIK those "leaf blower" turbos have tiny wires... not gonna do much.

BTW transformers and inverters both sap power too..

The way that TOYOTA does it (via the three way power shifter - see the PRIUS) is inegenious...

Which of course is why you now see Toyota usinghybrid tech to make v6's with v8 power on demand... they are making an electric "supercharger"....

TFJ-4runner

Ricers will have a field day with those.

Texas_Ace

I have heard something about these but not any details. Are these things they will be adding to the new models? Will we be able to get a modders version? They actually WORK????????????

Bunta Fujiwara

Absolute Bull... there's no way that an electrically driven fan will give more power than a proper mechanically driven supercharger. It would in fact most likely reduce power output by restricting proper aerodynamically charged airflow into the engine. If you want more power, and you want to get it from a supercharger, get a proper mechanically-driven roots blower, centrifugal superchager, or a compressor-screw unit....

Don't ever buy one of those, or I'll slap you hard, even though I couldn't in real life...

The grapefruit launcher crowd probably digs things like this.

"Hey man, my car's like totally pimped out.... yeah, it's really sick dude. It does 0-60 in like 12 seconds. Stock it can do it in 6, but I like it dude, it's like totally awesome to have no midrange torque at all, man.... you should screw yours up someday too... It's sick!!!!"

Bunta Fujiwara

Aftermarket would be absolute crap no matter what. But if Toyota did a similar thing, they would do it right, I'm sure...

I guess if you had a proper fan/turbine and a powerful enough electromagnetic phase drive system or electric motor, (a phase drive would be way better than a motor, and don't criticize me if they don't exist, because I've developed units of my own), you could make it work. A mechanical one is still just plain better, in my opinion.

ewong

How to do an electric "supercharger" properly...

First off - Toyota does an electric "supercharger" and does it very well.
But its not a super charger in the traditional sense.

Lets think about this.
the END GOAL of a super charger is MORE POWER.

A turbo is the most interesting. It converts the exhuast gas HEAT and uses that heat to do "work", namely compress (and compress is the proper term - not "blow", compress - that means higher than ambient air pressure) more air into the engine. More air means more fuel can be burned which translates into... more power.

The reason a turbo is "interesting" is that it uses the exhaust heat as an energy source. Since we were "throwing the heat away" we get something from "nothing".

A super charger works similarly to a surbo in that it also compresses air to allow more fuel to be burned. Its power source is the ENGINE itself. Off the cuff I have seen literature that claims that the super charger (depending on type etc) consumes 7HP of crank power to do the "work". But you gain back MORE than that through the extra fuel you consume. Up to a point. My guess is that since the crank to compressor relationship is "fixed" via a belt - the super charger "runs out of steam" at certain RPMs. If you set it up to be efficient at lower RPMs, it cant spin effciently (aka cram enough air in for power gain) at higher RPMs and vice versa.

BTW - Nitrous Oxide does the same thing by both its cooling effect and by the fact that Nitrous Oxide contains what you need to burn fuel - namely oxygen....

So the appeal of an electic super charger is that unlike a belt driven supercharger, you could vary the crank to pulley ratio....

The down side is that
--you trade crank HP for battery "stored energy"
--electric motors at 12v are going to be massive

There are percieved advantages
-- you already have a battery and charging source
so the power appears "free".

But as you look at the physics you begin to realise that you have to add some big motors, battery source (aka multiple batteries) and potentially improved charging source.
Also, the alternator to chemical storage (aka battery) energy conversion process is not particualrly efficient - there are inherent losses of energy in the conversion of "work" at the alternator to the resultatnt work pulled back out via air compression.

So... the Toyota engineers sat down and went about this in a totaly different manner - they thought about HYBRID engines.

The knew that the ideal hybrid car would
-- allow regeneration of power to be recaptured via braking (why toss that free energy away)
-- allow the user of a non electic motor to generate battery power
-- have the tractability of a typical car (i.e. it needs to feel like a car not a golf car)

The resulting Prius drivetrain is AMAZING.

Some points to bear in mind
Electric motors generate peak HP at ZERO RPM
Combustion engines suffer "pumping losses" when used with a throttle body.

The fitted two energy sources into a mechanical power "splitter".

So the gas motor crank shaft power goes into the splitter.
The electic motor crank shaft powe goes into the splitter.
The splitter "output" power shaft spins the transmission.

The key is that the power flows are reversible!!!
The gas engine powers the splitter = small motor economy car
The electric motoro powers the splitter = electric car (town use, starting off line)
The splitter powers the gas engine = starter
The splitter powers the electic motor = alternator charging the batteries
The transmission powers the splitter = spiltter powers the electric motor = regernative braking.

Most importantly - MULTIPLE soruces can be running at once!
So the motor can run at FULL THROTTLE and some of the power can go to the transmission to thrve the car and the remainder can go to the electic generator to charge the battery.

HERES THE SUPERCHARGER....
BOTH the gas motor and the electic generator can power the splitter at the same time and both power sources can be directed to the drivetrain transmission.... Thus the HP of the electirc generator (run as a motor) can be used to propel the car. Aside from some power losses in the splitter (which are relatively small and can be "recaptured" via torque multiplcation via gearing) the HP of the gas motor and the HP of the electric motor can be "ADDED" to an equivalent drivetrain HP...

Now Toyota leadership began to see the REAL potential of this unique drivetrain... they could develop the drivetrain as a "green" car (Prius) and then could use it as a "supercharger" (Highlander and now Lexus 'ute)... both of which gives their entire organization experience in the real world use of the drivetrain (how t make it, what its wear and tear is, how to service it).

More importantly, since the splitter is computer controlled, the difference between say a PRIUS and a "hotrod" is SOFTWARE.....

Also - who says that the gas motor has to be "gas". What about a small efficient DIESEL running (when running) at FULL THROTTLE?

The possibilities are intriguing.... now if I can snag a used hybrid Highlander cheap

(Hybrid Highlander - Gen1 4Runner)