Just a simple question from a welding newb. I'm looking to get a welder (my first) mainly for getting broken bolts out, but I'm sure I'll use it for other things as well. But to keep it simple, what kind of output current would suffice for welding nuts onto the bolts in our frames (6mm-10mm diameters, 1" to 1 1/2" long) to unscrew them? Would a 110V, dc, 80 amp stick make do? The price is right, I just hope it's up to the task.

Thanks!

 

My advice to anyone thinking of getting a welder:
Take a trip to your local community college and sign up for a course. You can learn stick welding, MIG, and TIG welding. You can learn to do it correctly, you can practice on a box of old bolts, and you can learn exactly what equipment you actually need.

A word of warning: Once you've used one of the Miller Synchrowave welders (for instance), that 80amp stick box will look really lame.

 

Scope, That's great advice, in all honesty I probably will try to get a feel for it myself first, in my garage. I wouldn't start using it on my truck until I had enough confidence to go at it. But if I feel like I'm not progressing at all and need some professional guidance, I won't hesitate to go take a course.

Having said that, this is my first welder so I'm starting with an affordable unit. If I find I like welding, then I'll move on to a nicer, more expensive American piece of equipment. But until then do you think this 80 amp will be able to handle broken bolts? For $100 more, I can get a 140A, DC, stick/TIG. I know the 140 will, obviously, work better, but I'm still wondering if the 80A could do it.

 

yes the 80amp 110v will do it with lots of practice first. Be sure to use fluxcore wire, as fluxcore burns hotter and I am sure you are working with dirty bolts. Practice and then practice a whole bunch more, then practice again.

 

Can I use fluxcore on this unit? I've seen machines labeled as fluxcore machines and others labeled stick, so I assumed they aren't interchangeable.

 

No you are correct two different processes .

Teaching yourself to weld just sets the stage for learning bad habits that if you go to school really make it hard.

Trying to teach yourself on a low end welder just gets even more frustrating

Learn the basic theory so you can understand just what is happening in the puddle then you can make it dance just how you want

If you want a stick welder look around for a used Lincoln AC/DC 225/150 quite a few bought and never used.

 

First off, removing bolts with a welder is NOT easy - especially 6-8 mm bolts. It takes a steady hand and the right equipment. If you are looking to work in areas that tight, you really need to get a tig welder so you have better control over your arc and filler volume and location. I was actually taught how to extract bolts by the best welder in the area and when I say "best" I mean the guy is damn good. He has welded for NASA and has some of his welds floating in space right now. He has also machined and welded together parts needed for a B-2 stealth bomber before the OC Air Show in 2011. The basics of the technique are to "stack" several tack welds on top of each other with a tig torch and filler rod so that you create a head to grab with a pair of vise grips to extract the bolt. The heat generated in the weld also helps free up any seized threads. I actually practiced this enough to get the confidence to extract a 1/4" bolt out of one of the cast iron heads on my Pop's 454. My Pops had tried to ez-out it and failed so I had to actually stack my welds in a hole about a 1/4" deep. Talk about a tight situation...NO WAY could I have done that with a wire fed mig. There is just simply not enough control in location, heat and filler material to do something that tight. If you miss your spot when stacking welds on a sheared bolt then you've basically just welded that bolt into place and it ain't coming out. I think that the smallest I would try with a mig would be a 12mm bolt or maybe a 10mm if it was threaded into aluminum. If you are set on a mig welder (which is more commonly and widely used) or you don't have a budget for a tig welder, then I would HIGHLY suggest NOT using flux core wire. Your arc will not be controlled or shielded as well which will cause more splattering on and around the bolt you are trying to extract. To give yourself the best shot, go with a very small solid core wire (0.024") and use a shielding gas. You'll have to get a welder that is gas ready (The Hobart Handler 125 if a good beginner machine) and then buy a regulator and tank of argon to go with it. Make sure you switch the polarity on the welder too - you should be using DC+ if you are using a shield gas.

There is a time and place for Tig or Mig welding. Personally, I wish I never bought my mig welder. I find my self wanting/needing to Tig more than anything (stainless and aluminum) and everything that I have migged so far, I could have tigged; and made a better weld at that. For the beginner, a mig is the way to go though, but keep in mind that it with speed, ease and performance you sacrifice accuracy and quality.

The rest of the guys that chimed in above are 100% correct - GET EDUCATED! In the long run, you will save time and money by taking a class or two. I started off self taught at welding; however, I have done a lot of research and I learned a lot from professional welders along the way. Wyoming is absolutely correct about learning bad habits - I have been corrected several times on my technique by the guys that know what they are doing and those bad habits can be hard to break.

 

All great advice; I feel I understand the bare-basics, in theory, after reading so much. But, I guess I won't know until that first weld. I wasn't planning on getting a mig, I was planning on getting a stick. There's a couple inexpensive ones: 80A, 110V, DC, stick; and 140A, 110V, DC, stick/tig. I'm leaning towards the 140A, which is just $100 more, and now that you've recommended tig I'm leaning more in that direction.

The reason I dismissed tig right away, in researching what to get, is that I've read how it doesn't work well outdoors. The wind blows the gas away, as I'm sure you know. But can you tell me, is it really that difficult to use outside? Can I "work around the wind?" I mean does the wind only affect weld aesthetics, or does the strength of the weld suffer too?

 

One can always work around the wind unless your in a hurricane

I have used Gas shielded welding processes outside for 30 plus years

I have also been in shops that had quite a wind tunnel effect when both doors were opened.

If you lose your shielding gas all kinds of bad things happen When your in class you get to see just what happens .

If the wind is blowing that hard you really don`t want to be welding outside

Over the years I might have used a welder to remove a broken bolt 2 or 3 times this is really a poor reason to buy a welder .

You would be more ahead to get a oxy-fuel torch.

 

That's good to know, I can just hold off on projects until I get a calm day then. Why do you recommend oxy-acetylene over a welder for broken bolts? The cost for a kit seems to be the same as the arc welder I'm considering, plus I'd have to pay to refill tanks whenever they run out. Also, the broken bolts are just what I'm starting with, I'll be using it for other things as well like repair, or creative purposes eventually.

 

Having just watched a short video on their uses, it seems oxy-fuel would be more appropriate because it heats up more compared to a cheaper arc welder that I'd buy. Also, I could use it to simply heat up any stubborn fastener as a first line of action. Can an arc welder be used just for its heat alone like oxy-fuel, without having to melt an electrode?

 

In theory onecould use a carbon electrode and a stick welder to produce an arc for heat .

One really needs to know just what your doing then till your at this skill level you most often already have a oxy-fuel torch or access to one.

Buying a welder with no idea how to weld is a kin to building a race car having never driven.

I deal with people having done this a few times a month.

 

I just spent this past summer dealing with 28 stuck bolts on some equipment at work and welding nuts to them to remove them. Like said above somewhere, welding nuts to such a small diameter bolt with be a PITA. Mine were 1/2" and still a pain, mainly due to the sucky location and not being able to get any tools in there.

Also like many have said, this isn't exactly a beginner technique for learning to weld and if you're buying the welder for particular task I'd think twice. Perhaps try to remove the bolt the old school way first before investing in the welder, then later buy one and learn to use it by fabbing something cool. You can still use the weld technique if the extraction method fails.

Take a punch and mark the center of the bolts. Drill ALL THE WAY THROUGH them with a drill bit. Take PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, etc (penetrating oil, not WD40) and soak them really well, make sure to get some inside the hole so it gets behind the stuck bolt. Then after a few hours try at it with a bolt extractor - make sure you don't force it like I did and end up with a problem of needing to extract a broken extractor, doh that was fun...or not...

good luck!

 

The thing with welding 2 pretty hard and fast rules you have to see what your welding .

You need to be very comfortable !!!

The more uncomfortable you are the worse your welds will be.

Most broken bolts are in such terrible places to get to let alone be able to see.

Trying to do this being unskilled is just asking for major frustration.

 

That's why I'm looking for a welder now. I tried the extractor method and failed, of course. The odds seem incredibly stacked against someone using that method. I broke the extractor off in the bolt too, man I love the rust belt. I read up before using that method too and followed all those directions; punch, drill, extract. I even looked into more highly recommended extractors because flutes blow, both from my experience and others' anecdotes. So I bought a set of multi spline extractors, albeit they probably aren't the greatest, but they were my only option other than ordering online. Broke it off in the bolt... So far my extraction success rate is 0%. The moment I finally succeed I'm going to be

Wyoming9, you mentioned oxy-fuel as a better alternative to an arc; a few replies back I had some questions about that, I don't know if you saw that post. But both the arc and a starter oxy-fuel kit are the same cost roughly, but refilling the tanks will add to the oxy-fuel welder's expense. If I go on to use welding for fab and art purposes along with extracting bolts, would you still recommend the oxy-fuel over the arc?

Thanks for all the help so far lads!

 

Back in the day while working as a Helper on Noah`s Ark the first metal joining tool I bought was a oxy -fuel torch.

In those days Oxy-fuel welding and brazing were taught in school

I was about 16 back then welded and brazed all kinds of things .

It is nice to put a Rose Bud on and heat things

I have a few Torch sets it is still my go to for cutting metal even though I have a Hypertherm Plasma cutter right beside the one torch set.

Filling tanks is a part of being able to do burn and heat things .

If I did it over again most likely would start with a torch again.

Then that is me.

While it is not as fancy as Tig on carbon steel it gets the job done

Plus the added bonus of being able to heat things.

 

you can't magically increase the amperage by just buying higher-rated welders, because the real limiting factor is the breaker rating on the 110v plug that you'll be using... there are also other concerns with how the wiring was run, and associated safety issues: https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=4507

in other words, i don't see how a 20amp breaker is going to get you a usable 140amps at the welder...

do you have a 220v dryer? what's the breaker rating on it? get a used 220v mig.

tig is pricey, stick is a pia and it's largely obsolete, oxy-fuel just isn't realistic for home use, which leaves inexpensive mig welding as the best option... start out with flux core, then add gas when you start getting it dialed in.

you can indeed teach yourself how to weld, there are some great youtube videos on it, just cut thru your practice welds to judge the penetration.

i ended up with a mig welder that's powered by two car batteries, it has more instant amperage potential than you'll ever get out of any house wiring.

downside is that i haven't added gas yet, so it's slow because i'm having to wire-brush all the time to keep a clean connection for the wire... i'm fighting splatter with those fiberglass blankets.

 

When you half the voltage, you double the amperage for a given input power.

The welding voltage might be as little as 25 or thirty volts.

This could easily give 80 to 100 amps at the welding point without tripping a 20 amp 110v ac breaker.

 

yes, that's true, it's ohms law, the point that i wanted to make there was that the duty cycle can take a beating as you increase the amp load, no free lunch: http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php...t-has-20a-plug

110v welders are generally rated at 20% duty cycle(?), which is 2 minutes of welding every 10 minutes... it's downhill from there.

of course the current draw depends on what you are welding.

 

Yes, 20% duty cycle isn't much.
Many relatively expensive welders only sport a 40% duty cycle at their rated amperage.
You have to lay out the really big bucks to get a rig that can be used semi-continuously.