Newbie Needs advice on an engine knock
09-09-2012, 05:22 PM
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Newbie Needs advice on an engine knock
Hi Ya'll i am looking at getting a 94 toyota 4x4 it has a 22re with a 5spd.
So i went to go look at it and it had a slight knock but in my excitement i did not pay much attention. but i was looking around this wonderful website and found lost of advice so i went back out to the truck and i pulled the rocker arm cover (looking for timing chain component damage / wear) timing components look brand new (no joke) but it had plastic chain guides (they look stock...) no wear on timing components (other than normal wear) there was some play in the valves / Rocker arms. i did a compression test and the results where as follows:
Cylinder 1 = 150 PSI
Cylinder 2 = 160 PSI
Cylinder 3 = 120 PSI
Cylinder 4 = 140 PSI
When i used a wrench to turn the crankshaft i heard this loud wheezing sound coming from the crankcase.... sounds more than normal.
Anyway point of this thread is there is a slight engine KNOCK not a tick but a solid knock. sounds to be front end lower but not 100% sure. i want this truck but i do not want to rebuild it. Engine has 225K miles.
The story is they where running super thick oil (something dash 50 or something) and they had an oil change and the tech put in 5W 15 i believe and 19 miles later they got this knock. the truck was stopped towed home and has been sitting for like 2 months. one interesting detail: you can hear the knock from the cab louder than from the outside. you can barely hear the knock above the normal engine noise.
Sorry for the Long post but i want to make my situation clear i do not want to pay for steak and get hamburger if you know what i mean
So i went to go look at it and it had a slight knock but in my excitement i did not pay much attention. but i was looking around this wonderful website and found lost of advice so i went back out to the truck and i pulled the rocker arm cover (looking for timing chain component damage / wear) timing components look brand new (no joke) but it had plastic chain guides (they look stock...) no wear on timing components (other than normal wear) there was some play in the valves / Rocker arms. i did a compression test and the results where as follows:
Cylinder 1 = 150 PSI
Cylinder 2 = 160 PSI
Cylinder 3 = 120 PSI
Cylinder 4 = 140 PSI
When i used a wrench to turn the crankshaft i heard this loud wheezing sound coming from the crankcase.... sounds more than normal.
Anyway point of this thread is there is a slight engine KNOCK not a tick but a solid knock. sounds to be front end lower but not 100% sure. i want this truck but i do not want to rebuild it. Engine has 225K miles.
The story is they where running super thick oil (something dash 50 or something) and they had an oil change and the tech put in 5W 15 i believe and 19 miles later they got this knock. the truck was stopped towed home and has been sitting for like 2 months. one interesting detail: you can hear the knock from the cab louder than from the outside. you can barely hear the knock above the normal engine noise.
Sorry for the Long post but i want to make my situation clear i do not want to pay for steak and get hamburger if you know what i mean
09-09-2012, 07:54 PM
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If you do your own work and know what your getting yourself into (which it seems you do), go for it if price is right...
Just don't take half-measures! and in that situation I would just rebuild engine to be honest.
Just don't take half-measures! and in that situation I would just rebuild engine to be honest.
Last edited by Vang530; 09-09-2012 at 07:55 PM.
09-10-2012, 10:49 AM
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That is what i am afraid of i mean i would be fine to rebuild the engine but it is all about the money, How much do you figure the truck is worth? Rebuilt title Brand new tires, stock IFS, nice interior body is 5 / 10, tranny is good (fresh clutch... 225K... I mean i really want it cause other than the engine knock it is real nice (and not the mention the not so perfect body but hey i can fix it if i want to) I want the truck but i do not have the money to buy it and fix it.
09-10-2012, 01:50 PM
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Update: The seller says the engine was rebuilt but the rods and bearings where not replaced. still waiting for the seller to produce paper work to prove the rebuild. if the engine really was rebuilt could i just go in the bottom end and replace the rods and bearings?
09-10-2012, 02:06 PM
#5
I would MAYBE give $1000 for it. They are plentiful in the southeast, with blown motors or trannnys or rearends. People buy the Toyotas and just dont maintain them.
There isnt any good reason to be running such a heavy oil, unless they were masking a problem. More than likely, the knock was there and they tried to cover it up with a heavy oil. Then the get the oil changed and it "magically" started knocking. 5W-30 oil is technically fine for a 22RE, from what I have been told. I run 10W-30 Royal Purple synthetic in my 3RZ, and 0W-20 in the FJC. In the winter I run 5W-30 in the 3RZ. These engines can handle alot of abuse with even minor maintenance.
If the body is 5/10, and the interior is mediocre, I wouldnt give alot for it. Especially since your going to have to possibly rebuild the engine. And yes you could just do the bottom end bearings, but I dont think its worth it to ignore everything else. At least get the head checked out, grab some new rings, and hone the cylinders. If it were mine, thats what I would do. Its cheap insurance to know that these things are done, and hopefully done right.
On the other hand, its possible also that they muffed something up when(if) they did the clutch. That may be why you can hear it louder in the cab versus under the hood. Just a thought...
There isnt any good reason to be running such a heavy oil, unless they were masking a problem. More than likely, the knock was there and they tried to cover it up with a heavy oil. Then the get the oil changed and it "magically" started knocking. 5W-30 oil is technically fine for a 22RE, from what I have been told. I run 10W-30 Royal Purple synthetic in my 3RZ, and 0W-20 in the FJC. In the winter I run 5W-30 in the 3RZ. These engines can handle alot of abuse with even minor maintenance.
If the body is 5/10, and the interior is mediocre, I wouldnt give alot for it. Especially since your going to have to possibly rebuild the engine. And yes you could just do the bottom end bearings, but I dont think its worth it to ignore everything else. At least get the head checked out, grab some new rings, and hone the cylinders. If it were mine, thats what I would do. Its cheap insurance to know that these things are done, and hopefully done right.
On the other hand, its possible also that they muffed something up when(if) they did the clutch. That may be why you can hear it louder in the cab versus under the hood. Just a thought...
09-10-2012, 02:15 PM
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I would MAYBE give $1000 for it. They are plentiful in the southeast, with blown motors or trannnys or rearends. People buy the Toyotas and just dont maintain them.
There isnt any good reason to be running such a heavy oil, unless they were masking a problem. More than likely, the knock was there and they tried to cover it up with a heavy oil. Then the get the oil changed and it "magically" started knocking. 5W-30 oil is technically fine for a 22RE, from what I have been told. I run 10W-30 Royal Purple synthetic in my 3RZ, and 0W-20 in the FJC. In the winter I run 5W-30 in the 3RZ. These engines can handle alot of abuse with even minor maintenance.
If the body is 5/10, and the interior is mediocre, I wouldnt give alot for it. Especially since your going to have to possibly rebuild the engine. And yes you could just do the bottom end bearings, but I dont think its worth it to ignore everything else. At least get the head checked out, grab some new rings, and hone the cylinders. If it were mine, thats what I would do. Its cheap insurance to know that these things are done, and hopefully done right.
On the other hand, its possible also that they muffed something up when(if) they did the clutch. That may be why you can hear it louder in the cab versus under the hood. Just a thought...
There isnt any good reason to be running such a heavy oil, unless they were masking a problem. More than likely, the knock was there and they tried to cover it up with a heavy oil. Then the get the oil changed and it "magically" started knocking. 5W-30 oil is technically fine for a 22RE, from what I have been told. I run 10W-30 Royal Purple synthetic in my 3RZ, and 0W-20 in the FJC. In the winter I run 5W-30 in the 3RZ. These engines can handle alot of abuse with even minor maintenance.
If the body is 5/10, and the interior is mediocre, I wouldnt give alot for it. Especially since your going to have to possibly rebuild the engine. And yes you could just do the bottom end bearings, but I dont think its worth it to ignore everything else. At least get the head checked out, grab some new rings, and hone the cylinders. If it were mine, thats what I would do. Its cheap insurance to know that these things are done, and hopefully done right.
On the other hand, its possible also that they muffed something up when(if) they did the clutch. That may be why you can hear it louder in the cab versus under the hood. Just a thought...
09-10-2012, 02:23 PM
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Here is the add for it...
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/cto/3250299964.html
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/cto/3250299964.html
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09-10-2012, 02:44 PM
#8
Price seems high for the rebuilt title and all the things wrong. But maybe thats just the left coast pricing. Maybe someone else from the NW can comment on value.
Determining a possible clutch issue is a matter of listening. A seasoned ear could tell the difference most times. Otherwise a stethoscope would be helpful in determining a close approximation of the source of the noise. If its louder in the engine block, then its probably internal engine noise. If it louder in the trans body, then...
Does it make any noise variation in gear, out of gear, coasting, etc? I have seen where someone did the clutch in their own truck, didnt line it up properly and it messed up the thrust clearances on the mainshaft gearsets. This caused a horrendous knocking that changed only with engine RPM. It didnt matter what gear it was in either. We ended up removing the trans, removing the bellhousing, removing the clutch from the flywheel, RE-installing the bellhousing only(for starter mounting), and fired the truck up. The engine running alone was quiet. So we sent the trans out for repair. Trans guy fixed it, we reinstalled it, and all was fine.
Now I'm not saying thats what happened with the truck your looking at, but anythings possible.
Determining a possible clutch issue is a matter of listening. A seasoned ear could tell the difference most times. Otherwise a stethoscope would be helpful in determining a close approximation of the source of the noise. If its louder in the engine block, then its probably internal engine noise. If it louder in the trans body, then...
Does it make any noise variation in gear, out of gear, coasting, etc? I have seen where someone did the clutch in their own truck, didnt line it up properly and it messed up the thrust clearances on the mainshaft gearsets. This caused a horrendous knocking that changed only with engine RPM. It didnt matter what gear it was in either. We ended up removing the trans, removing the bellhousing, removing the clutch from the flywheel, RE-installing the bellhousing only(for starter mounting), and fired the truck up. The engine running alone was quiet. So we sent the trans out for repair. Trans guy fixed it, we reinstalled it, and all was fine.
Now I'm not saying thats what happened with the truck your looking at, but anythings possible.
09-10-2012, 02:57 PM
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i have not driven it at all i have only run it for like 2 minutes i do not want to further damage the truck. I have a stethoscope, never thought of that (that is why they call me a Newbie) anyway if it is coming from the engine, what would it be i mean this is my first work with any engine knock, what is making that sound could it just be a spun bearing or something else?
FYI: this person wants to trade for my 1992 jeep Cherokee, the jeep is worth at least 2 grand, if not more. the jeep is near perfect, but i really want a toyota. but i am on a limited budget. What would you do in my place?
FYI: this person wants to trade for my 1992 jeep Cherokee, the jeep is worth at least 2 grand, if not more. the jeep is near perfect, but i really want a toyota. but i am on a limited budget. What would you do in my place?
09-10-2012, 03:31 PM
#10
I have had H**ps, and I worked as a tech at a H**p dealer. Not a fan of them. At all...
That being said, a Cherokee in good shape, mechanically and cosmetically, still isnt worth a quarter of what a beat down Yota is worth, in my book. Just my opinion though...
If you are dead set on it, and are prepared to do some work on this Yota, then go for it. Otherwise wait a bit a keep searching. There are better out there, usually from someone older that just wants to get rid of a big Toyota for something smaller. Or someone just doesnt care about Toyotas.
On a side note, around here in Ga, there are pickups and Runners going for 1000-2000 needing motors or something else. So you may be able to find a cheaper Toy if you look around a bit. Dont jump just cause its a Toy. If you're not financially prepared to do an engine, trans, etc, then wait a bit. I always assume the worst when I get a used vehicle. I have to be prepared for the engine to fall out in a week. or the trans to grenade tomorrow. Because not everyone is honest and maintains their vehicles like they say...
That being said, a Cherokee in good shape, mechanically and cosmetically, still isnt worth a quarter of what a beat down Yota is worth, in my book. Just my opinion though...
If you are dead set on it, and are prepared to do some work on this Yota, then go for it. Otherwise wait a bit a keep searching. There are better out there, usually from someone older that just wants to get rid of a big Toyota for something smaller. Or someone just doesnt care about Toyotas.
On a side note, around here in Ga, there are pickups and Runners going for 1000-2000 needing motors or something else. So you may be able to find a cheaper Toy if you look around a bit. Dont jump just cause its a Toy. If you're not financially prepared to do an engine, trans, etc, then wait a bit. I always assume the worst when I get a used vehicle. I have to be prepared for the engine to fall out in a week. or the trans to grenade tomorrow. Because not everyone is honest and maintains their vehicles like they say...
09-10-2012, 03:40 PM
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I am ready do do work on this yota, but i want to get a feel for what all needs to be done. i mean a total rebuild i do not have the money for. but i can get a used engine a a junk yard around here for like $350. and i think that is what i'm gonna do if i get it.
This engine is high miles, but if it was really rebuilt last year like the owner says it was, then it could just be $150 and and i got me a real nice rig or it could be $300- $400 and i gotta pun a new motor in it.
do you think the rods them selves need to be replaced?
This engine is high miles, but if it was really rebuilt last year like the owner says it was, then it could just be $150 and and i got me a real nice rig or it could be $300- $400 and i gotta pun a new motor in it.
do you think the rods them selves need to be replaced?
09-10-2012, 03:50 PM
#12
Usually the rods dont need replaced. The bearings take the beatings. And a rod knock can just be a couple thousandths of an inch of play, and it will sound awful.
If you decide to finish the deal, and get the truck, do a listen and decide where it may be coming from. Then its up to you to inspect everything and possibly replace the bearings. I agree that you can get used 22R engines fairly cheap, but there are different blocks used through the years so verify your parts as best you can. Some things wont interchange. If I were to get it, I would listen, find the problem, and decide from there. New bearings only(if thats the case) or a good used replacement. Engnbldr has good parts and is excellent to deal with. They are in Portland, I believe. His parts are cheap money for quality parts.
Go ahead and dive in and get it. It will be a great learning experience for you, and hopefully save another Yota from the scraper or someone who will abuse the hell out of it.
Good Luck!!
If you decide to finish the deal, and get the truck, do a listen and decide where it may be coming from. Then its up to you to inspect everything and possibly replace the bearings. I agree that you can get used 22R engines fairly cheap, but there are different blocks used through the years so verify your parts as best you can. Some things wont interchange. If I were to get it, I would listen, find the problem, and decide from there. New bearings only(if thats the case) or a good used replacement. Engnbldr has good parts and is excellent to deal with. They are in Portland, I believe. His parts are cheap money for quality parts.
Go ahead and dive in and get it. It will be a great learning experience for you, and hopefully save another Yota from the scraper or someone who will abuse the hell out of it.
Good Luck!!
09-10-2012, 09:15 PM
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Can i drop the pan and work on the engine while still in the truck or do i need to remove it from the rig? (for the lower end work)
I heard from another mechanic locally that if i remove the spark plug on the bad cylinder (the one that is knocking) that will quiet (a lot) the knock. is this true? What is your experience?
I heard from another mechanic locally that if i remove the spark plug on the bad cylinder (the one that is knocking) that will quiet (a lot) the knock. is this true? What is your experience?
09-11-2012, 03:57 AM
#15
Can i drop the pan and work on the engine while still in the truck or do i need to remove it from the rig? (for the lower end work)
I heard from another mechanic locally that if i remove the spark plug on the bad cylinder (the one that is knocking) that will quiet (a lot) the knock. is this true? What is your experience?
I heard from another mechanic locally that if i remove the spark plug on the bad cylinder (the one that is knocking) that will quiet (a lot) the knock. is this true? What is your experience?
I would recommend removing the engine and putting it on a stand. Thats ideal. And Im sure without any lift/diff drop brackets, that you would have a difficult time getting the crankshaft out without damage(if you left the engine in the truck).
In regards to removing a plug to quiet a knock, I believe SOME people have had luck removing the plug WIRE from the plug to stop combustion, hence stopping the pressure on the cylinder. But the flip-side to that is, if there is looseness where the rod connects to the crank, or looseness where the rod connects to the piston(wristpin), then without ignition going to that cylinder--you wil just have a loose, floppy piston knocking around. It MAY help you diagnose, but it is certainly not even a bandaid.
09-11-2012, 05:35 AM
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I would recommend removing the engine and putting it on a stand. Thats ideal. And Im sure without any lift/diff drop brackets, that you would have a difficult time getting the crankshaft out without damage(if you left the engine in the truck).
In regards to removing a plug to quiet a knock, I believe SOME people have had luck removing the plug WIRE from the plug to stop combustion, hence stopping the pressure on the cylinder. But the flip-side to that is, if there is looseness where the rod connects to the crank, or looseness where the rod connects to the piston(wristpin), then without ignition going to that cylinder--you wil just have a loose, floppy piston knocking around. It MAY help you diagnose, but it is certainly not even a bandaid.
In regards to removing a plug to quiet a knock, I believe SOME people have had luck removing the plug WIRE from the plug to stop combustion, hence stopping the pressure on the cylinder. But the flip-side to that is, if there is looseness where the rod connects to the crank, or looseness where the rod connects to the piston(wristpin), then without ignition going to that cylinder--you wil just have a loose, floppy piston knocking around. It MAY help you diagnose, but it is certainly not even a bandaid.
09-12-2012, 07:09 PM
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I am gonna do it. i am gonna get it delivered this weekend i am so excited!!! the top end was rebuilt, the bottom was not. I am gonna have to pull the engine and rebuild the bottom end. I CAN'T WAIT TO BEGIN!!!! (i gotta wait till the paycheck comes in to start...)
Thanks for all the advice guys!!!
Thanks for all the advice guys!!!
