gromsurf

Asking again before I tear into my 22re: Can a jumped chain change timing where it barely ran and or hard to start, won't start!

Looks like my chain jumped clockwise two teeth and broke a link in the process. Created a problem possibly with a valve/piston collision? Bent valve? how do I check this without removing the head or starting the engine?

History: So, it was slapping around and chattering for some time, and all the sudden upon start up the engine made a weird clunk-kathump sound, then quite, then would barely start with pumping the throttle alot. Then on restarting it sounded like it was out of time, barely ran as it has and now ran like doo doo! Chug, chug and died when release throttle. Then I tried to restart it and the engine was still quite warm+, it sounded like it was hitting a wall or something stopping it from continuing to crank forward like after 1 to 2 normal sounding turns. Now it won't start after running like a champ for 226,000 miles.

Checks i did next day: Hand cranked the main pulley and it turned freely with only occasional drag like it was compression tension. Next I pulled plugs out and key cranked to look for coolant shooting out and none present. Next compression check revealed #1 and #2 at 150 lbs., #3 and #4 at 160 lbs. Yet to do timing light, can that be done without starting it?Removed the valve cover and noted a broken link in the chain, some metal shaving on the top of the chain as well as the driverside guide broken and small fragments of that present. With the main pulley on the "0" mark the distributor pointed at #1 plugwire the cam gear mark is about two teeth clockwise from TDC Is that enough of a difference to be creating all the running issues and create a more serious problem like valve/piston collusion WIth the TDC on the cam gear lined up to 12:00 the lower main pulley is about two inches before the "0" timing mark.

Other things I'd like advise on:replacing a pin-holed leaking radiator with Aluminum, brass again or have it recored? Timing chain kit+ who's a good suppier? Also, I hear I should remove head to do these repairs, but getting mixed responses from local shops and I feel because im not sure about the valve/piston collusion issue it maybe wise to remove the head just to insure I didn't bend a valve or worse but thought I'd put it out here again for more insight. What about buying parts, OEM or after market? Keep hearing engbldr.com, LC engineering+++, I want OEM or better quality parts but who provides this and a good price also? Is engbldr and LC engineering better than or =to OEM ? What about misc parts on Ebay?

Thanks in advance to you Yota-head pioneers

Dreidel

your distributor wont cause your piston to hit your valves but i found out if you have the distributor to advanced the motor wont start untill it has cooled off because there was times where i was sitting because i didnt know what was wrong but maybe i just have a weak starter anyway when i retarded it a little it ran and started great all the time
your valves shouldnt hit from just 2 teeth because i have my cam advanced 2 teeth and idk if thats whats sucking my gas but other than that it runs fine and up till my very recent problems it was pretty peppy and would easily walk away from a stock 95 chevy pickup until shifting into 4th (i was proud even though i lost the race)
if it was a bent vavle i would imagin that its not a bent vavle but some other problem because, correct me if im wrong here but, if the piston hit the valve when it hit it would bend right where the head meets the shaft and make it so there wouldnt be a good sealing surface causing bad compression. in theory, i could be wrong there cause im not for sure but im pretty sure thats how that would go.
i would definatly replace the timing chain because assuming it was done on time the first time and taking into consideration that it managed to stretch enough to jump 2 teeth id say with my "professional opinion" that its time to replace lol
be careful when buying cheap timing chain kits from orielys or autozone, ect because when i bought mine for some reason the marks on the gears and the chain where way off and there was no possible way to line any of the dots up not matter how i held my tongue, ended up doing it the old school way (id go with any of the sites you said except for ebay imo)
id say just replace the timing chain since it needs done anyway any see where you are after that

brianh699

It can be done with the head on but if your headgasket is old it may get messed up when you put the timing cover back on (the headgasket extends to the end of the cover)I would not go OEM on the guides, get some metal backed ones everything else I would go OEM

83

Unless you're interested in a "bandaid", it's time for a rebuild, I'd say. 226,000 miles. Your compression is good...but I'd say at least timing chain and headgasket.

The correct way to do a timing chain is to remove the head. Otherwise you risk creating leaks and bad seals, and at 226,000, the headgasket is ready for replacement. Toyota OEM is the way to go. A lot of people like enginebuilder. engnbldr.com is the website, I think. Or something like it.

If you jumped teeth and have a broken chain and metal fragments, every time you crank and run the engine, you are circulating metal shavings into your bearings, scoring them and the crank. It there's a broken chain, and it snaps all the way, then you definitely have pistons hitting valves, if you haven't already. I hope at this point you've stopped trying to start it...

I'd skip ebay, but if you do go there, ONLY do it after researching what makes a good kit, and make sure that's what you're buying. There's a LOT of crap parts out there.

berberlevin

Engnbldr has a page on eBay. Same parts they sell on their website. Got my head rebuild kit from there as well as new head bolts. Once I get my block checked out ill be buying the rebuild kit from them.

gromsurf

First of all I want to say thanks to all of you Yota-heads for the great and insightful input.

I am taking my time before moving on the direction I wish to proceed in this one as all of you have brought to my attention many different options, opinions, and misc. things to consider. I agree as 83 and brianh699 put it good parts are important so I thing I will use mostly OEM and some from engbldrs.com to get the metal guide kit.

Because this truck is so unbelievably clean and inside and out, the engine has been factory Toyota maintained to date also inside and out its whole life, it shows very little signs of wear, never off-roaded, garage kept, doesn't leak a drop of anything, like I said 226,000 and going strong! Kinda makes me want to keep her going as long as possible before cracking her open and changing things that Toyota did right the first time!

As it is stated many places... If it ain't broke don't fix it!! I'm afraid if I put my big meat hooked in this clean representation of a sweet and original little Toy 4x4 it may never be the same.

This in mind I'd prefer to just attempt the basic timing chain only method or "bandaid" as 83 put it, but only because this truck is so clean and the engine has been so well kept inside and out by the previous owners, it shows very little signs of wear, again never off-roaded, garage kept, doesnt leak a drop of anything, 226,000 all orig. and still going strong!

I hear so many horror stories of a total rebuild or complete overhaul gone wrong only to have to do the job over or end up wanting to off-load something we love out of frustration caused by making a poor decision or having a bad experience.

And to answer 83's response for the light metal shavings, when that happened I was actually sitting in the driveway a/c on yacking on my cell to an associate for a good hour or so not paying attention to the fact that the temp was rising a tiny bit [I ran the radiator dry because I had a faulty cap]. When I did realize, I shut it off let it cool somewhat and added water and then restarted and that's when the weirdness began. Thinking back on that restart it may have been the loose chain I heard jump or?? But the motor quit so it through me off! Then would not restart, I should've known!

The chain was already making the usual rattle noise, [signs of normal wear], but it quitting on me was brand new stuff! That's why I was careful not to attempt to run it or other wise. Still sitting in the driveway and up to this point it was my daily driver on 500 mile trips none stop with no issues other than poor fuel consumption. The new 1 time noise I heard was quite unique and why I checked everything so carefully since.

The thing I visually noticed first when removing the cover was a partially broken link and a couple light metal shavings from the chain lightly bouncing off the inside valve cover, I'm guessing this one time only as the marks were slight and minimal. Did not look like long time wear marks. Again I shut it off immediately after hearing the new and strange noise. I'm sure there's some slight debris in the bottom of the oil pan as there is also remnants of the drivers guide there also but that's and easy cleanout issue by simply removing the pan when doing the timing chain assembly.

What I don't understand is why it ran so poorly after that 1 time episode, and why when I check for TDC with the crank being lined up at "O" and the distributor lined up at #1 wire the cam gear ends up being a couple of teeth clockwise from 12:00. Or if I line up the cam gear at 12:00 the crank is at least two inches before "O" mark. The Hayes manual says to lineup the rotor with #1 spark plug wire, and gear at the cam gear aligned with the notched tooth on the "dizzy", when I do that one of the others is off also. Why aside from my partially broken chain link [only 1 link and 1 little piece on the 1 side of it], that's got to be what is wrong with it and why it wont run as it did. When I hand turn the crank and get the chain to that part it kinda twists and binds a bit and the chain gets tight on that side. guessing it's not liking the weak link issue. Probably should have changed the original chain long ago!

Anyway I want to make sure to get everything lined up for when I tear into this baby. I have posted some pics of the chain in previous threads if you want, have a look and I will also ad some pics of how clean she is inside and out! who doesn't love a clean 2nd gen. Toy...\\\


Keep me moving forward, and wish me luck...
Cheers to all!!!

gromsurf

So I pulled timing chain and associated parts and my suspicions were validated. The timing cover had pretty significant damage right near the lower gear and am guessing that was the noise I heard and possibly why the chain jumped and broke a link, luckily I wasn't driving it when it happend and the chain didn't snap all the way off as to completely damage the entire setup. When I removed the oilpan all the metal timing cover left over parts were all present and revealed the damage was significant enough to warrant replacement of the cover also present was the timing chain guide plastic parts. Well going to reassemble in the next few days so will let you all know how thing go and will post pics for all to see.

I can honestly say I did not expect to see what I saw after reading so many other timing chain repairs online as this would be a first! So yes I believe my chain jumped and made it so the motor would not operate and the timing system bind up because the chain was damaged and twisting and creating tension in the system.

Still would like to hear idea's as to what would be the best radiator option for a 22re engine. I currently have a three row factory Toyota brass unit that looks to be in pretty good condition but has a couple of pin holes near the cap and a bit of visual calcium build-up inside. Is it worth having it repaired?

ZUK

iTrader: (1)

Hi Gromsurf-
I had a 1984 Toyota truck...22R...and I started it one day and it ran terrible. A quick check of the timing revealed 20 or 30 degrees off so i FIGURED THE CHAIN SKIPPED A TOOTH. dAMN CAP LOCK.....So I took it apart....lots of plastic guide in the oil pan. I remember I could hear the chain rattling around during start-up so it was no real surprise when it skipped.
Regarding the radiator....the last thing I would ever do is try to save an old radiator....calcium inside acts like an insulator and cooling efficiency goes out the window. I am a firm believer that the oem 1 core aluminum is the way to go. I believe the oem is aluminum on the 22RE's? I remember upgrading to the slightly larger 3.0 V6 1 core aluminum one in my 84 model...I honestly don't remember the mounting issues but I think the 4 mount holes were very close and no major issues securing the radiator and the oem shroud.
There would be alot less haedgaskets being replaced if the radiator was replaced at approx 150k miles.....even if it looks good and no cooling issues YET still should be replaced with a brand new aluminum one. I believe the cooling efficiency goes down from day 1 of the install..... but no one ever worries about it until the gauge climbs and by that time, it's too late, the head has been stressed and a HG problem is around the corner. Just replaced my 2001 Tacoma 3.4L oem radiator with another oem one....125 big ones from http://radiator.com Yes, the new one has the plastic tanks and I'm not fond of those....but 12 years on the original oem one....I can live with the plastic.....just replace it 12 years from now
Interestingly enough, radiator.com had an outlet in the Phoenix area so, in 2 hours, I had a new one at my doorstep....no extra delivery charge.