Found something else. I'm getting mixed answers... hopefully someone here can clarify. I tested compression on all four cylinders. I will describe the test in a minute. Here are the results. What does this mean?

#1== 75psi
#2== 80psi
#3== 90psi
#4== 80psi

When cranking, the gage takes about 5 pulses to reach maximum PSI reading. It goes to about 15 to 35 to 50 to 60 to 70. All 4 cylinders follow the same pattern pressuring up to max.

QUESTIONS I HAVE:
1. Can 75-90 psi in this engine keep it from firing up? If YES, what psi do I NEED to fire up? If NO, then why won't the engine even start when I have confirmed fuel, air, spark and 75-90 psi?
2. I was told by a mechanic that all ANY engine needs to fire up as far as compression is 60psi... is this correct?
3. If the compression values I am getting are not correct, HOW does the engine produce these numbers? What could have been built wrong to produce these values? Could the camshaft have been installed incorrectly?

Thanks.

 

Also, this test was obviously done COLD. The engine won't start or run so I can't achieve operating temp, then perform a compression test.

 

So, found another problem... this one might actually be THE problem. The FSM reads that specified compression for the 22RE is 171psi. The MINIMUM psi required is 142 psi. I tested compression again, this time by the book (FSM), followed all the steps, etc and got:
#1=100
#2=100
#3=96
#4=92

These are well under spec. I called the Toyota dealership and asked to speak to one of their senior mechanics. I told him the numbers, explained that the engine was bored .040 over, new pistons, new rings... actually EVERYTHING is brand new except the block and valve cover. The block was also decked (machined down, took material off the top of the block so the head is closer to the block. This produces HIGHER compression, reduces emissions and increases power and fuel economy if done correctly and exhaust is tuned correctly. The EPA regulates all vehicles in the USA to get horrible gas mileage, so we spend all our money at the pump. The "computer" systems they use ENSURES that these engines get terrible gas mileage no matter what speed, RPM, load you're currently at. The EPA regulation is no piston can come CLOSER than 100/1000th to bottom of the head.... thanks greedy, evil government). Anyhow, the mechanic explained that because all the parts are new, I'm not losing compression because of a bad head gasket, bad/worn out piston rings, bad/worn out bores or bad/worn out valves. He said "the ONLY possibility is that the CAMSHAFT WAS INSTALLED INCORRECTLY... and from the data, it's likely 3 teeth off". He further explained that timing can be 100% correct and it still won't run because of the misaligned camshaft and the poor compression it will produce. I had the block and head rebuilt by a shop because it was only 450$ for everything... including the boring and machining of the block... can't beat that deal, so I went with him... he made a mistake. He'll be back on Monday.... so I'm off to drink beer all week =] I'll update on Monday when I find out what he wants to do to fix it.

 

That sucks.....

There are two types of engine timing, mechanical and ignition timing. If either one is off, the engine will not run correctly.

^^ This makes does not make sense.....

Do you have any proof that this is the case?

Why would companies be forced to make very inefficient engines and engine management systems by the EPA? That would certainly raise emissions not lower them.......

How would you make your 22R-E get 50 MPGs?

 

Thanks for the input 87. Yeah, we're fairly certain the camshaft is off since everything else is new and everything else has been checked a bazillion times over. We'll find out when the cam is adjusted.. I'm guessing it's going to fire right up.

EPA stuff: "Why would companies be forced to make very inefficient engines and engine management systems by the EPA? That would certainly raise emissions not lower them......." Yes, very confusing isn't it. The ENTIRE reason they made the EGR system and Air Injection System on our good ol' 22RE is BECAUSE it's terribly inefficient. They had to make those systems to "help" with the emissions that the design was putting out. ALL of the emissions control testing centers are controlled AND MONITORED by our government. You can't even "use" the equipment in attempt to "test" a potentially better (less polluting) part i.e. Weber Carburetor. The Environmental PROTECTION Agency regulating things that actually harm the environment?.... Unfortunately this is the world we live in and cars are small compared to OTHER pollutants us humans dump into the world. It would take far too long and there's not enough space on the forum to explain. You'll have to look into it yourself sir. I have plenty of proof, been watching these clowns for the last three decades. Here's some tid-bits to get you started: Ever wonder why MAGICALLY European cars get incredible gas mileage?(they pay nearly 4 times the price we do for gas{currently in the UK it's $5.79 a gallon, do the math and you'll see it's the same price per distance traveled}, so it evens out in the pocket book for the one's in control). Ever wondered why NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has EGR systems on their cars? Why don't "performance" cars (the real ones, I'm not talking about daddy's mustang) have EGR systems? Ever noticed Japan's incredible-near to nothing emissions on their cars? (The same country that makes the same cars... but different for us.... now most of them have their own plants right here in the USA because it's too expensive to ship the junk they make for us). Ever wondered why those giant diesel trucks that carry your gas and groceries around the country are "allowed" (they're actually emissions exempt btw) to dump all that black crap into the air all over the country (black crap is actually partially unburnt diesel due to an also terribly inefficient engine design). Even wondered why, if a person tries to IMPORT an incredibly efficient engine from somewhere NON USA (to put in their awesome Toyota for instance.... I was trying to get an R5 by VW) that they charge you TAXES and TARIFFS on the VEHICLE PRICE (VW Tourig), not the engine price? (would have cost me around 15 THOUSAND dollars to get that engine in my driveway). They will get their money one way or another. All up front or every week at the pump, you get to choose. Hell in 1990, Honda made a 4 cylinder V-tec that got 70 miles to the gallon on gasoline not even tuned or optimized, just a regular 4 door sedan.... that was nearly THIRTY YEARS AGO. In the 50's a 4 cylinder carbureted engine was designed and built that got 100 mpg! Can you guess who bought the patent and buried it? That's right... BIG OIL.. they want your money and don't care about anything else... that includes the environment. They've been suppressing vehicle technology for a LONG time... to make money. We're talking about the worlds #1 commodity and guess who controls ALL OF IT? If one were inclined and had enough money (turns out MAKING an engine from scratch is quite expensive) to build their own awesomely designed engine, one could easily achieve 100 mpg out of the biggest V-8 you could imagine. I can't wait for electric cars to completely take over... they are so simplistic that there is nothing to regulate. There are also USA mandates in place that by 2020 or something like that, that ALL vehicles MUST achieve better mpg... how are they going to do that? Magic? No.... they've had the technology for decades.

Now to your questions:
I don't know if 50 mpg is achievable on this platform, ergo you'd have to redesign certain parts, etc. for it to achieve those numbers... and then it wouldn't be a 22RE anymore. Here are some things that you CAN change that WILL improve your fuel economy;

1. Different transmission, typically a 6 or 7 speed (if you can get one and make it work) will be needed. You can also change ring and pinion gears as well as spider gears (3rd members) to really dial it in. This requires a bunch of tuning and is dependent on many other factors like engine output, weight, configuration, tires, suspension, etc, etc. OUR engines run at high RPM, that keeps the gas burning and the money rolling in. You can actually generate MORE power with taller gears WHILE using less fuel if done correctly. If you're going 65 mph with the RIGHT gearing, you should not be quickly accelerating, but rather very slowly... even if you mash down the gas pedal. Fuel efficiency is very different than what we're used to here in the USA. We wanna go FAST.... to the next red light or slow poke or traffic in front of us.....
2. Eliminate EGR, Air Injection, Computer controlled injection and timing (this is what your GEARS are for), and all the other BS they put on these trucks and other vehicles in the USA.
3. 3 Angle valve seats for both intake and exhaust valves. Fluid dynamics is pretty amazing and you'd be surprised what difference in air flow a 3 angle valve seat can do over a single angle.
4. Intake and head machining/porting/polishing/reshaping. Specifically routing airflow better into a "center" swirl position. Rather than a "ploom" which produces uneven burning, rivlets (just what it sounds like... little rivers-of fuel that actually make it all the way from your tank to tail pipe without ever burning LOL, what a great design). Piston heads can also play a part in this as well. Any piston that forces or accommodates fuel/air mixture more to the center during compression the better.
5. "Decking" your block. A machine shop can take material off the top of the block. It MUST BE precision, otherwise you can really mess up your engine. This allows the pistons to come closer to the head producing HIGHER compression. This trick coupled with less fuel from injector, better "center swirled" air flow (both intake and exhaust) and all the other stuff, gears, tires, etc. WILL produce more power, more fuel efficiency and less emissions.
6. Exhaust. This side needs to flow just as well as the other. You can purchase or fabricate "headers" (LCE actually makes really good ones that are surprisingly inexpensive AND come coated). You will want to wrap, coat, insulate, etc. the new headers if they are not already. This does a number of things.... one is to keep engine bay heat down, makes exhaust flow better, etc. Another interesting thing you can do with exhaust is adding a "open atmosphere simulator box" (don't know if there is a real name for this device) to your down pipe. If you put your hand near your tail pipe.. you will feel it "popping". This happens when heated exhaust hits "open atmosphere"... it's a PRESSURE CHANGE. So by putting this handy box (it would look like a shallow rectangle box made of aluminum) just after your down pipe (tuning and adjustment required), your exhaust reaches "open atmosphere" sooner, and actually creates vacuum BACK into the cylinders during INTAKE stroke. It's like a FREE mini-turbo for your engine. Nascar has been doing this for years... on the sly because the cars are supposed to the "the same" so competition is fair... but we're smarter than that... we know that humans are involved and they'll do whatever it takes to win, cheat, lie, kill, whatever. Remove catalytic converter (if allowed in your state). Pretty sure they are all federally mandated now and required everywhere, however you can always say it was gone when you bought the vehicle Also most "muffler" shops won't touch it if the cat is missing, so you'll have to fabricate exhaust by yourself or find someone to help you that's not a "regulated" shop.
7. Tires. It's funny, but the goofiest looking tires work the best. So our big, knobby mud swampers are terrible, just like low profile wide big wheeled tires. They are for specific purposes and not for fuel economy. Grandma's whitewalls are probably the most efficient out there. Super efficient, look terrible.
There's other stuff you can do but I'm tired of typing. Look into this stuff... you'd be amazed at what a combustion engine can do if designed, built properly. I've done much of this on my '85 4runner, so I'm curious to see where it lands.... IF I can ever start the damn thing... Gonna fix this camshaft. Hope you enjoy the information 87, most people never KNOW about any of this... or don't care... or don't THINK to care... whatever.

Gonna go pull the valve cover and inspect the camshaft. If I can visually see that it is off, it will be proof positive. I'm not going to fix it.. the dude that built the engine is going to fix it. I'll post what I find.

 

So I worked on it a bit more tonight... took the valve cover off and checked the camshaft, all the dots and pin line up, set and confirmed TDC.. everything checks out. I don't get it... has fuel, air, spark and at least 100 psi compression... I would think it should at least start. I've made arrangements for it to be transported to the shop after the holiday... I'm going to hand off the football and see what they can do with it. jeez

 

Did you use factory Toyota copper washers on the fuel rail? If they're wrong, it may block flow and not maintain fuel pressure.

Sorry if this has been advised previously but I couldn't read the whole thread. It was making my brain hurt.

If you're looking for phenomenal ported heads or performance parts for your build, then I very highly recommend Tim at DOA Racing Engines. www.doaracingengines.com. They used to only build full long blocks and very high end cylinder heads, but Tim continues to develop new product for our beloved old Toyota engines. DOA has recently started selling a StockLine head , a StreetLine head, and a StreetLine Powerpak combination at some super good prices on ebay. Take a look! Even the entry level StockLine head will run better than anything else you'll find on the market at a much higher price.

 

Ha Ha, no problem man. I did use the Toyota copper washers (super thin things) on both ends and on the banjo bolts as well. Thanks for the input. I'm sending it to the shop on Thursday... I can't work on it anymore, going to start breaking stuff. I've check, re-checked and octavian checked everything.... I can't figure it out. Hopefully a new set of eyes and hands will get her going.

 

did you have the timing cover off or were you using the crank pulley timing mark? the harmonic balancers have been known to separate and the timing mark moves.

 

Hey akwheeler, I'm not sure what the "timing cover" is, I don't think I had that off. I took off ONLY the valve cover to expose the camshaft, rockers, valves, etc. I was setting the crank shaft where it needed to be 5' BTDC and checking the distributor rotor as well and checked that the camshaft is in the correct orientation. Basically checking that the MECHANICAL timing was correct and the ELECTRICAL timing was also correct. Everything checked out. She's going to the shop tomorrow to have someone else figure out why it's not running. Have to pull the drive shafts and get the steering right before she goes so I can have them extended and be able to steel it once it's running.

 

The timing cover is what "covers" the lower timing gear and removal is the definitive way to verify your timing marks on both the cam sprocket and the crank sprocket. Like I said, the harmonic balancers have been known to fail, the rubber that connects the inside and outside can separate and allows the outer part with the timing mark on it to move. So if you are using that as your only check that the mechanical timing is correct you may be fooling yourself.

 

Ah, so it's the bottom part. Got it. Well, it's going back to the guy who did the engine rebuild so I'm sure he'll check it. As far as I understand it, it must be in the right position because I verified cylinder 1 at TDC AND on the correct mark on the crankshaft pulley. We'll find out soon enough. He should get it running then I'll have an answer to why it wouldn't run. Will post when I get it back from the shop. It's going in tomorrow.

 

Still no word from the shop yet. I've continued to do research on the 22RE specs, particularly the compression. It should be at 171 and it's at around 95-100. The camshaft could be off time even though the dots, etc line up. It could also be a valve issue. I'm going to call the shop tomorrow and ask him to do a leak down test. This should confirm a few things and identify why the compression is so low. I do have a "street RV cam" and completely redesigned head on the engine. It was made by ENGNBLDR.COM out of Oregon. Contacted him about the low compression to see if he had any information about HIS product and low compression readings. He said with a new engine rebuild, his head and after market cam, they typically see around 130-140 psi on a dry compression test, so I'm still waaaay off. I'll post up what the leak down test produces.

 

Got an update today. Turns out I'm no stupid afterall.... the mechanic at the shop could not figure out why it's not running. He also couldn't get it started and checked everything as far as he could to try and start it. It will be towed to the shop of the guy who did the engine rebuild tomorrow morning. I have continued researching and learning about engines in general to see if I could identify a potential reason why it won't start. Now, I think the issue is the rocker arms.... They were the only part that was used from the stock head. I asked the guy who did the rebuild if he "adjusted" them after everything was put back together and he said no. My best guess is that they are off and this is what's causing the poor compression and not allowing it to start. I ran this theory by the guy today while we were making plans to get it to his shop and he said it's very possible. I know that the crankshaft and camshaft are in there correctly and timed correctly together. The valves are brand new with no issues either. It's the only thing I can come up with as the possible problem. I'll update when he figures it out.

 

Wow, Checking and adjusting the valve lash is something that should have been done on the front end, not as a measure of last resort...

 

Totally agree. However, the new head looks identical to the stock head, just has an RV camshaft and a couple refortified areas on the head. I think he thought it was a "new" stock head and just bolted them on. I'm not a specialist so I don't know much about adjusting the rockers and what "has to be" or "should" be done when building the engine. I get the "poker read" that he didn't do these right when I questioned him... and this guy knows his stuff. That's all he does is machining and building engines. Everyone makes mistakes... hopefully he'll adjust them and have it running soon... then I won't care =]

 

UPDATE: PROBLEM FOUND/SOLVED. The problem was "all the valves were stuck". It went back to the guy who rebuilt the engine and he was able to "unstick" 3 of the valves (cylinders 2-4) and do a compression test which came back at 155 psi each... which is right where they should be after a rebuild (unseated/new parts). He said that cylinder 1 keeps sticking and he's going to take the head off and "fix" the problem to make sure none of them get stuck. He said the cause of the valves sticking was "old fuel" in the lines... which makes zero sense to me. He said it wasn't "his fault" so he's charging me for the repairs... I'm calling BS. I think he had the valves over adjusted which produced the low compression, but they may have become stuck/bent, etc because of his over-adjustment. Before he pulls all the springs and valves, etc I will be inspecting all the parts and taking pictures. The only way the valves are sticking is if the valve guides were not reemed correctly and the valves don't fit correctly, or 1 or more valves are bent. If the valve guides are wrong.. I will be getting a refund for the crappy head build, which was purchased from ENGNBLDR.com. I will know if the valve guides are wrong if he takes the springs off and the valves don't just "slide" out. If they do, I will then know it was HIM who installed/built it incorrectly and I won't be paying him for the work. I'll post an update once it's fixed, one way or the other and it starts up.

 

Old fuel, eh??? This guy is jerking you around.

 

Yeah, I don't know if he's saying that because he doesn't understand what's really going on OR (more likely) is that he knows he messed up the build/install and he's just throwing stuff out there so he can try and say "it's not my fault"... "and this is gonna cost you X dollars to fix". He's lying is what I suspect, but then again, perhaps the valves are all stuck/sticking and the valve guides are wrong... I'll find out monday when he has it at the shop.

 

This has been an interesting thread to read. Glad to hear the cause was found, but my guess would be it's the mechanics fault and not engnbldr's. Sure, mistakes happen but Todd is really on point and I seriously doubt he'd send out a head with stuck valves.

Hearing that lame excuse about old gas makes me glad I do all my own engine work these days.