kushiel

I thought I graduated to the non-newbie forum but that's not to be. I picked up this 4Runner for $100. We did a bunch of work on it detail in other threads to bring it up and running (wiring, fuel pump, new clutch, etc..)

I drove it for town off and on for a few months until it started acting funny. Losing power, sputters, hard to start. Then one day it just won't start. Spent about 2-3 months working our way through the FSM. Everything checked out.

We checked the compression and everything looked good there. I gave up and took it into my mechanic. He took the valve cover off and told me the timing chain was stretched out and maybe had some bent valves.

Some more months pass. I tried to sell it as is but no takers and I don't want to scape it so I am going to try and change out the timing chain.

kushiel

Overview


No coolant or water mixing in here.

kushiel

The guides are still intact but I can deflect the chain with my finger about 1/2 inch which I guess it bad.

kushiel

I am not a mechanic and this is my first truck I've ever worked on. I have never done engine work before.

Here is what I know:
We get compression within the ranges on all 4 spark plug holes.
The gaps are within range on the head.
But when it ran the engine ticked, maybe valves were out of wack?

I saw some recommendations for using EPN in Portaland for the steel guides, oil and water pump.

Some questions:

Is my timing chain actually wonky? Or is there a problem somewhere else?

It's recommended that I replace the oil and water pump since everything will be in pieces?

Is there any way to tell if the head is all screwed up and the valves? Or did I have to put a new chain on and see what happens?

I am moderately terrified of doing this. I can only borrow some driveway space for about 2 weeks which I hope is enough time for the job.

kushiel

Found the compression gauge!!! Rather it was found for me. So I am going to run another test on all four valves to see if things are really messed up.

gigatech88

well , to answer your questions.

-- Is my timing chain actually wonky? Or is there a problem somewhere else?

Is it a new timing chain? or was the old one reused? I'll skip the second part until There is a little more info.

-- It's recommended that I replace the oil and water pump since everything will be in pieces?

As a mechanic I look at that question as so. If I'm already going to take it off and there are any signs of wear, or the car had a previous note/problem with the part in question. Replace it. Then again if the part is working and money is tight I understand not replacing it.
**As long as no damage is being done to the engine.

-- Is there any way to tell if the head is all screwed up and the valves? Or did I have to put a new chain on and see what happens?

I wouldn't put a new chain on and "see what happens".
The best way to check the head and the valves is to remove the head (as if you were doing a head gasket replacement)
When the head is off you check it with a straight edge and feeler guage.

IF you can turn the crank without any problem your valves are most likely fine. You will know if somethings wrong. I would double check your timing marks.





EDIT
ok valve ticking. It could just need a valve adjust. and I just realized you already said you have the FSM

Buck87

^^^^^
If the valves and head gasket are OK you do not NEED to remove the head gasket. Sometimes ticking is caused by an old timing chain slapping against the timing cover, sometimes valve adjustment. If you don't have a stethoscope for cars you can make one by sticking a piece of 1/2" hose near your ear and placing the other end on the valve cover or where ever. If the crank turns OK by hand you are OK to check the compression. If so check your compression and report back with the results.
How many miles on the motor?
Check out this thread on doing a timing chain without removing the head.
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ingChain.shtml
If I had to do it again I would remove the oil pan.
The FSM says to remove the head but this method works fine.

Edit
We never graduate from the Newbe thread and you posted in the right area if you want to learn.

Edit
Do you have spark?

Edit
Do you have Fuel?

kushiel

@gigatech88

By turning the crank to you mean that big bolt (where all the belts and pulleys are) on the front that I can attached a socket to?

I can rotate that and everything turns.

I have no idea how old the water and oil pump are. Based on what I've seen in the 4runner so far I would guess they were never replaced. I am grad student so money is tight but I set aside beer money for awhile in case I needed to replace the chain and pumps.

@Buck87
I am trying to avoid removing the head because it looks like a nightmare (well for me anyways). I don't have a garage or driveway. As it is I am borrowing a driveway from the 22nd to July 7th but get kicked out after the 7th. So I have a very limited time to figure out what is wrong.

We had spark and fuel before everything upchucked. And after it wouldn't start we went through the FSM checklists and came up good on everything. The timing chain was the last thing I wanted to check.

The engine was rebuilt at a shop in Santa Fe. It has 55K miles on it. I only put a few hundred extra miles before I ran into this trouble.

I can turn the engine by attaching socket and wrench to that front pulley and it moves pretty well.

Going to check the compression here in a little bit. Gotta walk down to my sis's house.

kushiel

Compression check

ZEROS!!! Across all 4 spark plug holes. I tried two different gauges!!

I put my finger near the spark plug hole as well and could feel a faint pulse of air.

I am guessing this means the valves are stuck open?

ara

gigatech88

umm. 0 on all four cylinders. odd
i have to think about this one. off the top of my head bad head gasket. Warped head and or block.

is there antifreeze in your oil?

You could take an air line and screw it into each plug hole. make sure you use n air regulator and low pressure.

kushiel

@gigatech88


No antifreeze. I checked that today too.

Both gauges I used were the screw in type and I followed the FSM for checking compression.

I also put an air line up against the plug hole so I could see if there was an compression. With each cycle of the engine I could feel a little push/pull but not much.

Wheels43

If the timing chain is that loose I'm guessing you slipped a tooth or two. But it doesn't make sense that all the cylinders show 0 for compression. I know on my 89 22re that it's a zero clearance engine (meaning that if your timing has slipped then the valves will hit the pistons). I actually pulled mine apart after the timing chain slipped and had it back together the same day with pulling the head. I then found out after putting it back together it would run but it took forever to get it up to speed. Talked to a good friend and he said I probably had bent valves. He was right and I did it all over again. Ran like a champ the second go around.

kushiel

@Wheels42 Yeah, it's weird. I am trying to figure out if it's worth my time and money to go at this. If the body was in better shape I would jump on it.

But that 0 compression makes me wonder if there is something really wrong with it.

Team420

well the 22re is NOT an interference motor, so I doubt that a stretched chain would cause bent valves. but it could have jumped a tooth or 2, so i'd start by checking te valve timing, and maybe replacing the chain, tensioner etc. It may also be (more than likely well past due) time for a valve adjustment.

85toy4runner

is the 22re an interference engine

bbrideau

uh the 22re is an interference motor. thats why teh pistons have the knockouts for your valves. if u skip a few teeth on timing chain. u will get collision and bend your valves

kushiel

Thanks for everyone's replies so far! Been out of town in the woods where my 4runner should have been.

kushiel

I am still waffling back and forth about what to do with this beast. Had a couple of folks take a look who wanted to buy it but to many unknowns for them.

I might have a lead on a guy who can help for maybe under $1000.

I am still weirded out by the 0 compression across all the valves. I am hoping I didn't do anything wrong on the test even though it looks dead simple to me

gigatech88

I would take it all apart again. 0 on all cylinders makes no sense. I'm not sure what could even cause this. How did you test your compression? I understand that you used a commission fudge, but what procedure did you use? All plugs in except the cylinder your testing? It's a stupid question but I'm trying to go thru all the variables.

Ha fudge. . I meant gauge. .. stupid auto correct

Philbert

iTrader: (2)

I hear Compression fudge is better than commission fudge

The fact that you can turn the crank with a 19mm socket SO easily, and that you have ZERO compression in all cylinders makes sense...when I turn (for a valve adjustment for example), it's a struggle because each cylinder builds up pressure when the valves are closed (this is GOOD!).

And yes, it's an interference motor.

THe comment by gigatech88 above about having the other 3 spark plugs in, I believe is a reference to a possible HG leak within...if your valves are fine, but you're leaking air, it could be leaking from one cylinder to another and dropping compression numbers.

I'm at a loss too. 2 weeks, with your level of expertise, is scary short to pull the head. I just did a HG and some more stuff in my garage and it took me quite some time. Since you got the truck for $100, I'd invest in fixing it right if you have the money. Why would you sell for $1,000 when you got it for $100 - seems you could dump for $500 as is and come out on top?

really curious to see what this is, if you fix it - I'm stumped.

What happens when you crank? Start, sputter, die? crank, crank, nothing?