89fourrunner

Well, what is the real way?

The FSM states to check using a fulcrum under the tire, when the vehicle is jacked up, but it does not specify if the vehicle should be loaded or not? (Jacked from the control arm, or jacked from the crossmember).

I am chasing a wandering steering issue, and so I checked the ball joints. I used the FSM method while jacking the truck up under the control arm for the side I am checking. when pressing up on the tire using a pry bar (under the tire and against the ground) I get no vertical play at all. I also get no play when doing the 12 and 6 push and pull method.

However - when I put a pry bar between the lower ball joint (against one of the mounting bolts) and the steering knuckle and pry, I get a lot of play vertically. Is this an incorrect way of doing it though?

Because the torsion bar is connected to the upper control arm, these are load bearing ball joints correct? Is play when prying the bj and the lower control arm apart a false reading?

gyates93

If you're getting vertical play in a ball joint while prying on it I would go ahead and replace that joint. I replaced mine because the boots were ripped, once you got them apart you could ring them like a bell.. They were originals with 350 000 km on them. Replaced them with Beck Arnley joints which is the OEM supplier to Toyota for half the price of Toyota parts.

ewong

Wander can ALSO be worn plastic bushings in the Idler arm.

If I reall - you can replace the bushings relatively easily.
Tie rod end popper tool helps.
Its also easier if you don't have a idler arm "brace" in the way.

My truck got immeasurably better steering when I went to a Total Chaos King Kong idler arm....

akwheeler

The best method I have found for checking ball joints on an IFS toy is to put a chunk of 2x4 or whatever I can find/fit in between the upper control arm and frame before jacking it up. I think there's a bump stop on the back side that makes a good spot (I did a SAS swap so I don't have one to check anymore). then I jack it up by the frame. this will leave the ball joints slack and close to ride height. shake the wheel top to bottom and pry up and down watching for play.

papawhellie

My 2WD was shaking at 35 to 40. Shocks are shot as well. I looked at many Autozone idler arms and finally found the right arm at NAPA. 38.00. Comes with grease fitting and is drilled for it. I am just going stock on this but picking one up for my 87 to mod.

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/IdlerArm.shtml

89fourrunner

Thanks to the advice, I found my uppers had an incredible amount of play, and when I removed them it was confirmed. the play in the joints were....very dangerous. I know I did the lowers 50,000 miles ago, but couldn't recall when I last did the uppers. They were shot. The turning is incredibly tight now, wandering is reduced, but it still likes to generally follow the road. The unpredictability is gone though - no more feeling of driving in wind when it isn't windy outside.

ChinkTruck

you may want to re-do your lowers, with the upper ball joints being toast, undo load would be put on the lower ball joints, at 50000 miles of extra stress they could be toast. May be where your still getting a little slop. If they're still good I would check your steering stabalizer shock. I rebuilt my front end a year ago and after replacing every thing, bushings, BJs, CV shafts, I still had a little slop. I checked the one thing I didn't replace, the steering stabalizer. It was blown with absolutely no compression. I was surprised how much a difference it made.

89fourrunner

I did in fact do the lowers a few days after the uppers. Once the new uppers were installed I could easily confirm play in the lowers. So all 4 ball joints are replaced, everything is tight, steering is good and tight and wheel returns well after turn. The truck still wanders however. It never wandered for years and now it does. I put a new idler arm on no more than 10,000 miles ago. Just not sure. My tires squeal like hell even in the slowest turns, like 1mph. Not sure what the deal is. It was aligned before the ball joints because it was wandering, and it still wandered after, and it still wanders now after new ball joints. I also would not say the steering box is sloppy because ot has about 1" on free play, which I believe is ideal. Hmm.

scope103

Changing (bad) ball joints is likely to affect toe. Wander and squeal are both signs of too much toe-out. Did you have the alignment checked after you replaced all the ball joints?

89fourrunner

No I havnt, but it drives exactly the same in regards to wander as it did with the old joints. Hate to pay for an alignment for a toe adjustment maybe ill do it myself. I believe it was aligned to neutral toe, maybe it needs a small ammount of negative.

scope103

I don't have the specs for an '89, but in '93 a 4wd called for 1 +/-2mm Toe-in. http://web.archive.org/web/201102052...17suspensi.pdf

The fact that it drives the same now as it did with old ball joints with "easily confirmed" looseness doesn't tell you much. Why would someone charge you for an alignment when the ball joints were so obviously shot?

ChinkTruck

Im telling ya, check your steering stabilizer, thats what my truck did, it would let the road guide it, if that makes sense. Ruts in the road, slopes, etc. It would want to follow untill i changed out the stabilizer. Give it a try.

89fourrunner

Okay, thanks guys noted. On a level surface eyeballing the toe, I do not see a problem. I understand this is not a great method but, it still is a pretty good method if you understand what you are looking for.

The stabilizer makes a lot of sense, as the truck does pretty well on flat roads at lower speed, but does tend to do as you described. The stabilizer is most likely original.

I suppose I could buy a cheap one, its a small investment.

My gut tells me it is not the alignment.

akwheeler

[QUOTE=89fourrunner;52343768]Okay, thanks guys noted. On a level surface eyeballing the toe, I do not see a problem. I understand this is not a great method but, it still is a pretty good method if you understand what you are looking for.


If you know what you're looking for why did you ask how to check ball joints? It's impossible to see how much toe you have without an alignment, you can tell if it's close, but even a small amount can make a big difference in handling and tire wear.

millball

Correct toe-in amounts to a few mm at best. Nobody can eyeball that.

It certainly is possible to check and adjust toe without any sophisticated instruments, but heck, the OP says everything is OK.

89fourrunner

[QUOTE=akwheeler;52343830]The first sentence I wrote in the initial post answers this question. The FSM is vague at best when instructing to use a long object as a fulcrum after jacking up the truck. It does not specify whether or not the suspension should be loaded or unloaded. In addition to this, since the entire suspension is pressed down from the torsion bar being attached to the upper control arm rather than pulled by the lower (how most trucks are) I wanted some insight from those who have checked them before. I found significant play in the uppers, and found no play in the lowers with the FSM fulcrum method, but did in fact find small play when using a prybar between thr knuckle and lower control arm (my method). I wanted that cleared up.

I know what I am looking at. I wrote the only accurate ride height adjustment/restorstion thread for this site after years of false information being spread throughout this forum.

Cant a guy ask gor some advice? Haha.

It may jusy need an alignment, you are probably correct, but my gut says no. Doesnt mean I am correct by any means.

89fourrunner

As I suspected, the toe is fine measuring at positive .12 degrees on the driver's side and .13 degrees on the passenger side. Unless it needs additional positive camber?

Still wanders, follows the curve/crown of the road strongly (almost don't have to turn myself on gentle grades, like it wants to follow the road automatically).

I suppose I can play around with air pressure, consider the steering stabilizer (although I have my doubts with that), or just live with it.

millball

You plainly don't understand wheel alignment. Your measurements of .12 and .13 degrees might be camber.???

Toe is not measured in angle, but rather it is a distance measurement of how far out of paralell the front wheels are to each other.

After scribing a line down the center of each front wheel tread, toe is measured by the difference between the measurement at the tire front and the tire rear at the line.

Correct toe should be about 1/8 inch, or a few mm.

http://www.sdori.com/SDORI_4WD_Align...ions_Main.html

Mr. No SPAM

Toe translates to both degrees rotation and distance difference between front and rear edges of the wheels. 0.10 degrees toe, for example, would translate to different distance measurements depending on the size of the wheel/tire. Larger wheels would have a larger distance measurement difference, and smaller wheels would have a smaller distance measurement difference, and both would still have 0.10 degrees toe.

89fourrunner, do you have alignment numbers from before you installed the new ball joints, to compare with where you're at now? I'd be curious to see if you have more caster now than you did before. Caster is related to steering feel/feedback and also to the self-centering tendency we are used to. More caster increases under-steer and the self-centering force on the steering, which means you must exert more force on the wheel to push the vehicle through a curve, or to maintain a straight path on road crown.

I wonder if the alignment is "good" but you now have more caster, more feedback coming through the steering system causing it to feel different to you. If it follows crown equally going both ways, right and left, that would rule out a camber issue.

I experienced this on my '86 'Runner. I lifted the vehicle and had it aligned afterwards. Steering was light and it was easy to maintain a line. I later pulled a leaf out of the rear spring packs to drop the rear a little, which effectively increased caster. After that the steering became heavier, and I felt more pull on road crown. I had the alignment checked again, and the only difference was the increased caster - everything else was the same.

Just a thought . . . .

millball

I understand the principle. I have never heard of toe measurements expressed in angle before, but I guess it would make sense when referencing tire diameters that differ greatly from stock.

I guess I'm the one who does'nt understand wheel alignment.