quiggs12

I tried starting my truck (sat all summer) the other day with no luck. The battery was good and my starter relay is good. I figured my starter was dead. I got a new one and still nothing... I checked to make sure I had power at the ignition switch wire on the solenoid, when cranking... I do! What do I need to check next. It seems the longer the time I spend away from my truck the more I forget about working on it... 88 22r-e (might be helpful info) Please advise. Thank you!

quiggs12

I'm sure it's just something simple that I'm overlooking. Any ideas? Thanks

RJR

There are two wires that run to the starter. One is a relatively small wire that activates the solenid when the key is turned. The other is a heavy gage wire that runs directly from the battery to the starter and supplies the actual power for the starter motor. It's not clear from your post which one you checked, but they both need power for the starter to work.

quiggs12

Sorry. I checked the small one that goes to the solenoid. What little bit I know is that the starter relay sends power to the solenoid via ignition switch when the key is turned. I have power there but it still doesn't crank. Again, it has sat a good 2 months... Thanks

RJR

It sounds like you have a corroded connection to the large cable, probably at the battery. Pull the battery connections apart and clean them up good. Make sure you clean up where the various cables are bolted to the battery connector, not just the connection to the battery post itself.

quiggs12

I just put a new starter on... Is it likely that the connection to a new starter is too rusted? Granted, I did it outside, in the dark with a flashlight in my mouth... (rough) but I don't remember it looking horrible. Thoughts?

RJR

No, the problem is likely at the battery end, not at the starter. Sometimes the cables corrode away inside the insulation where you can't see it.

quiggs12

The cables are good. I just cleaned them and still have nothing... Any other ideas?

quiggs12

I just went and pulled the starter off again. I connected a jumper cable between the starter and the engine. When I turned the key it worked perfectly. I then cleaned up around the engine block where the starter is bolted (thinking that maybe a ground wasn't complete due to rust. I again bolted the starter back to the engine and it won't turn over... Does this sound like something is shorting out on the block somewhere? If so, what and where is the most logical thing to check next??? Please help. Thank you.

RJR

You could still have a problem with a high resistance cable. The starter doesn't take much current when it's off the engine and just turning freely. It takes a lot of current (several 100 amps) when it has to turn the engine.

Bolt it all up and check the voltage at the starter on the main cable while someone is turning the key trying to crank the engine. Somewhere you are likely losing a bunch of voltage.

If the voltage at the starter is good while trying to crank, then you have a mechanical problem, where the engine is locked up and the starter simply can't turn it over. Try putting a long wrench on the front crankshaft pulley and see if you can turn the engine by hand.

RJR

A couple of other voltage measurements you should make. You'll need an assistant to turn the key to the start position while you're taking the readings.
1) Put one probe on the positive battery terminal (the battery itself, not the cable connector) and the other probe on the heavy cable where it connects to the starter. With the key in the start position, you should read under a volt or so. Any higher voltage indicates a bad cable or connection.
2) If that checks out, do the same thing on the negative side. Put one probe on the negative battery terminal, and the other on the starter frame right at the starter. Again, you should read a voltage less than a volt while trying to start the engine. If it reads higher, you have a bad ground cable or ground cable connection.

If you get a too-high voltage on one or the other of the measurements above, simply move the probes closer together along the cable in question until you find the trouble spot. Again, it';s common for old cables to corrode inside the insulation and look good but not be up to the job of carrying starter currents.

RAD4Runner

Makes sense because that is probably not a starter problem. Many people and shops blindly replace parts before verifying if that part is really the problem.

That is not the ignition switch wire. That is the wire from the starter relay.

Do this quick check to see if your starter solenoid is working. This does not need ignition to be on.

Here's how the cranking system works, step by step. See what does not do what it's supposed to do, then work on that.

When you say your starter relay is good, do you mean it clicks and does it send 12V to the brown wire that connects to starter solenoid (here)? To check this you'll need and assistant or use

IF starter relay clicks but starter solenoid does not thunk (heavier clicking), the flaw in 1986-1988 cranking circuit (here) is probably causing it. This flaw causes too much voltage drops in circuit that starter solenoid does not get enough power to actuate even when starter relay works.

This is how you can fix it.

If starter solenoid thunks but starter does not turn, then it could be your solenoid contacts(See 4Crawler's site for fix). But again, I doubt it. Fix that flaw first to help extend the life of your ignition switch contacts.

quiggs12

The engine is definitely not frozen. It turns freely. I'm going to check the rest of your suggestions tomorrow once I'm out of work. I appreciate your ideas and knowledge because I ran out of both... :-) Thank you

RAD4Runner

This check also narrows down where to look:
Starter solenoid and downstream to starter motor, OR
Upstream of solenoid: that brown wire back to starter relay to clutch safety, to ignition switch to power.

vital22re

iTrader: (2)

If you are not getting atleast 10v to the starter signal wire it will struggle to start.

RJR

I think the above post from the OP indicates that the starter relay and the solenoid in the starter are both working, otherwise the starter wouldn't turn while off the engine. It seems to me like the starter is not getting adequate current to operate under load. The voltage tests I outlined should confirm or debunk that theory.

A couple of weeks ago my son called me lamenting that his car wouldn't start and he was pretty sure his battery was dead and so he needed a new alternator, which he couldn't afford. I told him to slow down on his diagnosis, and wait until we ran some tests. I brought my handheld voltmeter to his house, and in less than 5 minutes we had pin-pointed the bad joint in the starter cable. He cleaned it up and all is good again. As others have pointed out, replacing parts is not generally the best starting point for diagnosing or fixing problems, at least not if money means anything to you.

RAD4Runner

He said starter relay worked but did not specifically say that the solenoid worked while installed on engine. Testing off the engine will not test the "flaw" I mention (which is present in all Mid-86 to 88's, and perhaps later years) because the problem is in circuit from battery to ignition switch contacts to starter relay contacts, to female spade connector that plugs into solenoid.

I underscore relay and solenoid because other manufacturer manuals calls the Toyota relay a "solenoid". In Toyota terminology, relay merely opens and closes and electrical circuit, while the starter solenoid , piggybacked on engine also actuates a mechanical part, the gear the engages the flywheel.

RJR

Well, maybe I read the OP's comments wrong, but here's what I got out of it.
- The starter relay works - he measured and got proper voltage at the starter solenoid
- He replaced the starter, which almost surely would have included the solenoid. It's unlikely he has two bad solenoids.
- The starter worked when off the engine, which means the relay and the solenoid were both activated.
- It doesn't crank when the starter is on the engine.

If the starter doesn't crank when on the engine, but does work off the engine, there are two likely causes (assuming the battery is charged).
1) The engine is seized up and the starter simply can't turn it. That does not appear to be the case, based on a recent post by the OP.
2) The main, heavy duty, electrical connection from the battery to the starter is inadequate to provide the amps necessary to turn the starter when under load. Unloaded, the starter will probably take less than 10 amps to spin. Loaded by the engine, even in fairly moderate temperatures, the current draw will be 150-200 amps or so. If the power or ground cables have .1 ohms of resistance somewhere, 10 amps will drop 1 volt and the starter will still turn unloaded. 150 amps across .1 ohms will be a 15 volt drop, which means the starter gets nothing when under load.

I understand your post about the flaw which causes solenoid coil current to flow through the ignition switch, unecessarily stressing it. However, the solenoid coil current is independent of the starter load, so if the starter works unloaded but not loaded, it seems unlikely that that is the problem.

The voltage tests I suggested will sort this out in less than 5 minutes.

Gevo

Do RJR's reccomended voltage tests!!!

If you still not 100% sure, kump the starter cable with a thick wire (or short jumper cable) and see that.

Note, if the engine is seized and/or the power supply is not adequate the starter would still make the clicking sound when it's trying to engage. .. is there any sound from the starter at all?

quiggs12

[QUOTE=RJR;52132979]Well, maybe I read the OP's comments wrong, but here's what I got out of it.
- The starter relay works - he measured and got proper voltage at the starter solenoid
- He replaced the starter, which almost surely would have included the solenoid. It's unlikely he has two bad solenoids.
- The starter worked when off the engine, which means the relay and the solenoid were both activated.
- It doesn't crank when the starter is on the engine.

Yes, all correct. The starter was rebuild by a VERY reputable business. It was bench tested and works as it is supposed to, just not on my truck. I am going to run your voltage tests (and appreciate your knowledge) tomorrow. I'll let you know what I find out. Thank you