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Ran, then died. 87 4Runner 22RE/5spd.

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Ran, then died. 87 4Runner 22RE/5spd.

Old 07-31-2005, 08:15 PM
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Ran, then died. 87 4Runner 22RE/5spd.

My 4Runner won't start, and I was wondering if the good people at YotaTech would give me some advice. Here's the situation:

Vehicle:
  • 87 Toyota 4Runner
  • 22RE
  • 5 Spd
  • engnbldr cam (labelled as an "torkr" cam profile. similar to an RV cam)

Recent changes/actions:
  • Replaced seal between upper and lower intake plenum
  • Removed and reinstalled distributor
  • Replaced cam - requires removing head bolts/rocker mechanism, and replacing
  • head bolts torqued to 58 ft-lbs
  • rocker arms clearanced to 0.007 inches (cold) on intake 0.011 inches exhaust (also cold)
  • oil is full

Behavior:
I got it started and running. Idle quality was good/smooth. A little noiser from newly installed rocker arms (was planning to readjust when hot). Blocked the wheels, left in neutral running at 2000 rpm to break the cam in. Went inside to get a drink of water. About a minute later, within a 10 second time period, I heard the engine slow down (who took the brick off my gas pedal?) and then stop (oh, no!).

Current symptoms:
Cranks fine but does not fire at all.

Strange behavior:
Fuel return line does not have any fuel flow (checked after pressure regulator on fuel rail). This is checked under cranking, and when having the +B/Fp points in the diagnosis port shorted and the ignition on (this turns on the fuel pump).

On occasion, if the engine has been sitting after a start attempt for about 5-10 minutes, I get a backfire through the intake on the next start attempt. It smells like the gas has burned.

Steps taken thus far:
Check spark on all plugs: remove plugs, place on top of valve cover, and crank engine. Spark seen at all plugs. The distributor cap is keyed, so misalginment is not possible. Distributor cap outputs are numbered as to cylinder, triple checked.

EFI/Ignition/Engine fuses all good.

Swap in computer from running 22RE: same behavior

Injector resistor checked for resistance: 3/2.8 ohms (within spec)

Vacuum lines quadruple checked. I now have the vacuum diagram/setup memorized.

Triple check that the camshaft is aligned with the cylinders: turn crank pulley to TDC, and look for mark on camshaft sprocket: points (almost) straight up. A single tooth to the left or right and it will definitely be out of alignment... I've replaced these timing chain sets twice, and it looks like good alignment from previous experience.

Test fuel pressure presence:
Release fuel pressure (at bolt on cold start injector on the intake plenum), and retighten bolt. Crank engine (no firing). Stop cranking, undo bolt: fuel pressure is back in the system.

Check fuel flow:
Remove fuel bolt to starter injector on top of intake plenum. Power the fuel pump, and I get enough flow to easily flood the engine.

Replaced the fuel pressure regulator with one from a working 22RE engine. No change in return line flow (none) or non firing during cranking.

Replaced fuel filter. No change in return line flow (none) or non-firing during cranking.

Disregarding the fact that the engine ran, and looking at it's current behavior, it seems like two problems could be occuring. If I have fuel pressure, and spark, but no firing (and the fuel injectors are assumed working), then I have a timing issue. Either in the distributor or (gulp!) in the timing chain. Since distributor has been working, and then rechecked three times, it seems to be the timing chain.

If I have no return fuel pressure, I may have too low pressure (partially working pump/fuel line blockage?), or too HIGH pressure (could keep the injectors from working?)

What do you people think? Thanks for your time.

Last edited by WildHare; 07-31-2005 at 08:40 PM. Reason: Spelling/grammar
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Old 07-31-2005, 08:59 PM
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No fuel in the return line sounds to me like it's either not getting into the fuel rail (blockage in the line/rail), blockage in the return line, or the injectors are dumping it all down the intake. Did you reset the ECU after all that work? That would be my first step. Pull the EFI fuse for a minute or two, or the neg battery lead. If you have enough fuel coming out of the coldstart pipe when cranking to flood the engine, then the rail (I would think) is properly pressurized, and has adequate flow. It's just a hollow tube with holes in it for the injectors, and a tap off for the cold start injector pipe.
Your valve lash is a little tight, book specs out at .008 intake and .012 exhaust. Remember, they'll tighten up as it warms up. I don't think that would screw you up this bad, though.
Did you check to see if there was fuel in the return line with vacuum on or off the regulator? I know it's vacuum controlled, but I'm not certain of the details. Could you have too much/not enough vacuum on the regulator when you did the check?
Could the timing chain have jumped a link? If they're loose enough, I think that that is a possibility. Reverify the cam vs crank timing. As you seem to know, the cam mark should be at about 1130 when the crank indicates 0*BTDC.
Just a few thoughts from a professional...Radar tech. I'm no mechanic, but, I DID sleep at a...no wait... I've had my runner since 97, and I've done the head twice now, so...
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Old 08-01-2005, 02:33 PM
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I had a similar problem with my 89 Runner last week. Check that thread.
Here are my suggestions.
1. Recheck the fuses. By that I mean ohm them out. The 7.5 amp one on mine labeled engine was bad, but appeared perfect.
2. Jump the fuel pump. I mean open up the access cover under your rear seat, and jump the two wires straight to a battery.(be careful). If you hear the fuel pump come on, try to start the engine. If it runs, as mine did, this will narrow down the potential problem areas. There are two relays dealing with the EFI. The first one is just over the ECU, behind the passenger side kick panel. Ohm it out. The reading are in your manual (or check that thread of mine from last week). That relay was bad on mine.

The other relay is under the fuse block on the driver's side. It is round and is labeled main EFI relay. Ohm it out as well. I hope this helps.
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Old 08-02-2005, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by fishuntr
...
1. Recheck the fuses. By that I mean ohm them out.
Okay, removed the EFI, starter, and engine fuses. All had resistance of 0.02 ohms, as measured by my DMM. Those values seems fine to me.

Originally Posted by fishuntr
...
2. Jump the fuel pump....There are two relays dealing with the EFI....
Okay, I diddn't jump the fuel pump with your method, but I did jump it with another method. According to the FSM (I have both the 1985 and 1987 FSM), with the 1987 wiring, I turn the ignition ON, and jump a wire from the +B to the Fp pins on the diagnosis connector in the engine bay. This always turns the fuel pump on (I can hear it), it returns pressure to the fuel system (at the cold start injector), and provides plenty of fuel volume to the cold start injector.

As stated earlier, cranking the engine (without the diagnosis pins jumped) always returns fuel pressure to the system, and provides much flow.

As for the relays: According to the FSM, there are two: the primary relay on the fuse block in the driver's side kick panel. This is checked two ways: turn igntion to ON/RUN. Should hear/feel a "click" from the relay: good. Second step: remove relay, and measure resistance at pins as noted in FSM. Again, good.

For EFI relay, behind the passenger side speaker: you should hear/feel a "click" when turinign ignition from ON to START: Pass. Second step: remove relay, measure resistance at pins. Also, good.

Hmm, what else should I do?

Thanks for your help! Your suggestions are definitely welcome and much appreciated!

For other steps taken, please see my other reply.

Last edited by WildHare; 08-02-2005 at 10:32 AM. Reason: Spelling/grammar/formatting
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Old 08-02-2005, 10:25 AM
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Additional info

Originally Posted by 2ToyGuy
..Did you reset the ECU after all that work?
Yes, I did reset the ECU after all that work, same result. Did it agian today with identical results.
Originally Posted by 2ToyGuy
If you have enough fuel coming out of the coldstart pipe when cranking to flood the engine, then the rail (I would think) is properly pressurized, and has adequate flow.
I agree. However, paranoia tells me that there maybe to LITTLE pressure (to provide any/good spray) or too MUCH pressure (prevents opening). However, after cranking, I can always smell gasoline. Not enought to be flooded, but enough to know it's there.

Checked for possibility of flooding: let engine sit for a few hours (to "dry" if it was flooded) and crank the engine. Same result: no fire but easy cranking. Remove spark plugs, and they are dry. I've been told that this is a relatively good measure. Wet with fuel = flooded. Dry = not flooded (most likely).

Originally Posted by 2ToyGuy
Your valve lash is a little tight, book specs out at .008 intake and .012 exhaust. Remember, they'll tighten up as it warms up.
I've read just the opposite, that if initially adjusting COLD, you want just a bit tighter, specifically citing 0.007 and 0.011 in. Maybe my memory isn't that good...

Originally Posted by 2ToyGuy
Did you check to see if there was fuel in the return line with vacuum on or off the regulator?
I tried it with the vacuum off the regulator when shorting the +B to Fp pins on the diagnostics connector, with the ignition ON/RUN. According to the FSM, this should start the fuel pump. It does start the fuel pump (I can hear it.. and it provides pressure/flow to the cold start injector). What is confusing is that the FSM says I should hear fuel reutrn flow while doing this test. However, there is no flow. The fuel return line coming from the pressure regulator is clean.

I replaced the regulator with one from a running 22RE, and the results are the same.

Originally Posted by 2ToyGuy
Could the timing chain have jumped a link? If they're loose enough, I think that that is a possibility. Reverify the cam vs crank timing. As you seem to know, the cam mark should be at about 1130 when the crank indicates 0*BTDC.
I suppose this is possible, but from memory (remember, I DIDDN"T sleep in a... ha ha), the mark on the camshaft sprocket is in the same place when the engine is at TDC. It ran then, why not now?

Other steps taken:
Using FSM book as guide:
Test +Batt to ECU (Provides constant power to ECU to keep memory on): good.
Test +Voltage when key in ON/RUN position: good.
Test voltage at EFI relay when cranking the engine. According to the FSM, I should read "a voltage" at this time... but it's only 0.2V! I checked the inline fuel injector resistor (silver heatsink bolted to passenger side of engine bay, just toward the firewall from the diagnostics port)... 3.2 ohms. This is a LITTLE high (spec = 3.0 max) but I don't think it will cause a problem.

Checked the operation of the MAF. Closed/open operation is fine. Passed all other tests, but I'm a little worried about one result. Two pins read a changing resistance as the AFM opens up. The FSM gives a range of resistances, but says nothing about progression. My AFM stays in the range of resistances, which is good. However, it is not completely linear. It goes up, and then jumps down about halfway, and starts going up again. This should not matter for starting, but does anyone know if this will be a running problem?

EDIT: Additional Info
Also checked readings on cold start injector timer, using FSM as a guide. The values for resistance at the pins checked out fine.

What should I do next?

Again thanks for your help and suggestions, they are greatly appreciated!

Last edited by WildHare; 08-02-2005 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 08-02-2005, 02:06 PM
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Problem found ?!

Allright, folks, I think I found the problem. After being confused at the situation for quite a while, I decided to replace that fancy new camshaft... Installing that camshaft is when the problems started.

Well, I took the camshaft/camshaft sprocket/distrubutor sprocket bolt out, and guess what? The camshaft to camshaft sprocket alignment pin is gone! Not sheared, just plain gone! It was there when I installed the camshaft sprocket, no mistaking, as it was the usual struggle to get it on and aligned correctly. Those who have done 22re timing chain replacement know.

Well, I called www.engnbldr.com... The stock guy in charge said he'd happily replace the camshaft if I ship it in. Friendly, too, which is nice. However, there is a more serious problem possible: the 22RE is an interference engine, meaning I can bend the valves if the camshaft is out of alignment. What would they do if my valves are bent because of a bad camshaft? The stock guy couldn't give me an answer on that point, saying that "engnbldr himself" makes all warranty calls. Okay, that is reasonable.

In any case, I'm off to swap in the stock camshaft. Maybe this is a lesson in buying non TRD parts . Too bad, engnbldr has a good reputation on the web and among my friends.

Wish me luck!

-Dan
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Old 08-02-2005, 09:41 PM
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Engnbldr cam

Yep, it was the engnbldr camshaft alignment pin. Replaced the engnbldr cam with the original camshaft, and it started right up. Suprised me, actually.

Now to exchange that engnbldr cam....
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Old 08-02-2005, 10:10 PM
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thats good that you figured it out, and more importantly, didn't bend any valves

but i would still try to find out why you dont have any fuel going back to the tank, if I'm remembering correctly, there is a relief valve on the pump that could be defective and not allowing the proper pressure to get to the fuel rail

Last edited by superjoe83; 08-02-2005 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 11-14-2005, 02:42 PM
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you should do a search on the 22re interference thing, im having timing chain problems too and i came across quite a few threads saying that the 22re's arent interference , but 81-84 22rs and earlier 20rs are. i think 4hummer had his head off and said theres no way the valves and pistons could come in contact.
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