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oh no.Rod knock?

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Old 11-16-2018, 06:37 PM
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oh no.Rod knock?

'94 22re 149K on the clock
So I just recently replaced the timing chain, hg, intake gasket, exhaust manifold gasket. yada yada. Its driving pretty good. Good compression post job (170's). Have it buttoned up and then tonight as I was looking over it I unfortunately heard what resembled a rod knock. I hadn't noticed it before because I was getting quite a bit of timing chain noise and to be honest I thought it was the timing chain rubbing against the cover (which it was, drivers guide was broken but has been replaced with new timing kit with metal guides, new timing cover). Adjusted the valves cold .008 intake .012 exhaust. It's pretty hard to tell where it's coming from. Tried the screw driver trick but didn't really get anywhere with that.

Anyways I know videos kind of suck in terms of engine sounds but I feel like it's pretty clear sounding. The valve cover is less than finger tight so I don't think its the rockers hitting that.

Thoughts?

video:

Last edited by Mason Edmison; 11-16-2018 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:03 PM
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Yes I heard the rattling sound. Not sure what it is though. Did not hear it when it was idling.

Did you use a puller to pull the crank pulley? If you did, you might have screwed the puller bolts in too far, and it bent the dust shield on the back of the pulley, and that can cause a rub. I did it myself, but caught it before I installed it.
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:44 PM
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doesnt sound like rod knock to me. i know you said your valve cover isnt tight but it sounds like your rockers may be interfering with it. get a stethoscope or butt a screw driver to your ear in different spots on the engine to where the noise is loudest.
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:55 PM
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Thanks for the replies ya'll.
Snippits, I didnt use a puller to pull the crank but I did use those bolt holes to hold it (with homemade tool) so I could crack the crank bolt loose. Doesn't do it at idle. Only at about 2500 -3000 rpm. I was thinking i would re adjust the valves tomorrow just in case. In terms of hearing where it's coming from... if it were a rod knock it would be coming towards the bottom of the engine, yeah?
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:52 AM
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Rod knock can be isolated by pulling each plug wire while running. The knocking bearing or cracked piston or wrist pin will go quiet.
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Old 11-17-2018, 09:33 AM
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Sounds like a stuck chain tensioner to me right now.
That suckers needs a specific torque, a bit of loctite.

Could be a rocker arm not running right?

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Old 11-17-2018, 10:16 AM
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pulled the vc to re adjust valve. All were pretty close. Chain seemed like it had good tension. I was pretty careful installing the tensioner. 14 ft/lbs with loctite (used a nice torque wrench).

There is one spot on the cam shaft that looked a bit suspicious (a slight marr) but could not feel it with my finger nail.
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Old 11-17-2018, 11:38 PM
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If you can't get the long screw driver to work for you get a proper mechanic stethoscope from harbor freight.

Some tips. Listen along the block not the oil pan, it's thin and won't conduct very well. As you move across up and down the block you should find an increase.

It's hard to tell in the audio, but that might not be exactly following the engine rpms. There is only one moving part that does this and it's the fan, make sure all the nuts are still there and firm.
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Old 11-18-2018, 01:22 PM
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I picked up a stethoscope and it seems like it was super load on the acorn nut on the vc (first and to the left) although all were pretty loud. The first and to the left nut definitely sounded the most like 'knocking' though. I did also pick up some knock like sounds along the block in the cylinder one area.

Took it on the highway and the rattling/ knocking can faintly be heard in the ab from about 60mph to 70mph. Should I be driving this thing? I really don't want a piston to shoot out the side of the block. My current commute is 1 hr on the high speeds 65-70mph. I

I guess I'll be looking at a low-end re-build in the near future. My question is how much of a priority should I make it? Think I can drive it through winter?

Thanks, guys.
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Old 11-18-2018, 03:20 PM
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another update:
I tried the following test to feel for play in the rod bearings:
- rotate cyl 1 and 4 (and 2 and 3) just slightly past tdc so they have just began downward motion
- carefully stick screwdriver on top of cylinder (I used the shortest one I could as to now risk scratching cylinder walls)
- press down to feel for movement or listen for sound
- I also went ahead and cranked the engine over without the plugs to blowout any crap that may have gotten agitated from the screwdriver.
referenced in this video -

After doing this a several times on each cylinder, I did not feel any movement in any of the cylinders. Is this a legitimate test? Only other option is pulling the pan I guess which is kind of a PITA.

What else could this noise be (see above post where I found the areas of noise)?
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Old 11-19-2018, 02:39 AM
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Did you do the "pull each spark plug wire while running" test? Did it go quiet? Did you actually verify TDC? So the valves are good to go? I am still at the valve train as the culprit. I know mine did it on occasion when cold. A quick burst of throttle would usually quiet it. This is either the timing chain tensionier, or a valve rocker. I really doubt it's rod knock. Does it stop when the engine is warm?

Have you seen that the rockers will move "forward and backward", off of the valve itself? I would really like to know why? What does that sping do exactly?
Can it be so that the rocker "jumps" off the valve and is not moving "up and down" in the proper location?

Cracked rockers? Correct rockers? Should be aluminum, not steel. (steel is 20r)
Does it do the noise with the valve cover removed? (Veryfy nothing is hitting the valce cover.)

Your video: so you move the engine with a wrench, back and forth a bit, and feel with the screwsriver for "backlash". If you find backlash, you have a problem and it is indeed a wrist pin or bearing. Probably wrist pin. They tick at a high frequency. But usually a bit higher, almost "pin drop" ticks. Kinda like injectors.
Just touching the pistons with a screwdriver will not do anything at all. You need to move the crank back and forth while you "feel". ?

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Old 11-19-2018, 04:31 AM
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Just because it's louder at the top or side than the bottom does not mean it isn't rod knock, that could be a little end (wrist pin) gap that is out of spec.

Pull the valve cover look for obvious contact points.

You said there was an issue with one of the cam lobes. Is this near the front of the head? Are there more threads sticking out of rocker adjustment here than the others?

When your chain issue originally occurred. Did it mix water and oil, and if so how long after this may have happened would you estimate the engine was ran?

Does this gnome with a hammer sound change based on throttle position and engine load?
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ev13wt
Did you do the "pull each spark plug wire while running" test? Did it go quiet? Did you actually verify TDC? So the valves are good to go? I am still at the valve train as the culprit. I know mine did it on occasion when cold. A quick burst of throttle would usually quiet it. This is either the timing chain tensioner, or a valve rocker. I really doubt it's rod knock. Does it stop when the engine is warm?
Have not performed the spark plug test yet but I will after work this evening. TDC was verified. TDC cyl #1 for half the valves, rotate crank 360, do other half of valves. Did it while the engine was warm (appx 160 degrees).
Seems to do it both warm and cold starting at about 2000 rpm. Temp doesn't seem to matter.

Originally Posted by ev13w
Have you seen that the rockers will move "forward and backward", off of the valve itself? I would really like to know why? What does that sping do exactly?
Can it be so that the rocker "jumps" off the valve and is not moving "up and down" in the proper location?

Cracked rockers? Correct rockers? Should be aluminum, not steel. (steel is 20r)
Does it do the noise with the valve cover removed? (Veryfy nothing is hitting the valce cover.)
So are they supposed to move side to side or no? I, to, have wondered what that spring does. Ill pull the vc tonight too and inspect the rocker arm assembly a little closer. How long is it safe to run with the VC off? Until a huge mess is made? ha.

Originally Posted by Co_94_PU
Pull the valve cover look for obvious contact points.

You said there was an issue with one of the cam lobes. Is this near the front of the head? Are there more threads sticking out of rocker adjustment here than the others?

When your chain issue originally occurred. Did it mix water and oil, and if so how long after this may have happened would you estimate the engine was ran?

Does this gnome with a hammer sound change based on throttle position and engine load?
I'll take a look at threads on the adjusters tonight when I get home. I know some folks had mentioned divits are other non flatness on the face of the valve tappets.

I did mix water with oil but only for a short time (estimate of 10-12 highway miles). When I drained the oil it wasn't that milk shaky - there was still a lot of un mixed coolant in the pan though. I am pretty sure it was making this noise before the work I did. I say 'pretty sure' because it was making quite a few different noises when the timing chain was bad (T chain was wicked stretched and smacking the over something fierce plus the ticking of the guide hanging on by one bolt).

Hm. It sound changes in the sense that I can't hear it until about 2500 ish rpm. It is pretty consistent now that I listen back to the audio.

My idiot oil light is not coming on. It worth checking oil pressure with a mech. gauge? I did drop the pan and removed oil pickup (cleaned with carb cleaner and compressed air). I don't know what low oil pressure would sound like?

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Old 11-19-2018, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mason Edmison View Post
Have not performed the spark plug test yet but I will after work this evening. TDC was verified. TDC cyl #1 for half the valves, rotate crank 360, do other half of valves. Did it while the engine was warm (appx 160 degrees).
Seems to do it both warm and cold starting at about 2000 rpm. Temp doesn't seem to matter.


So are they supposed to move side to side or no? I, to, have wondered what that spring does. Ill pull the vc tonight too and inpect the rocker arm assembly a little closer. How long is it safe to run with the VC off? Until a huge mess is made? ha.



I'll take a look at threads on the adjusters tonight when I get home. I know some folks had mentioned divits are other non flatness on the face of the valve tappets.

I did mix water with oil but only for a short time (estimate of 10-12 highway miles). When I drained the oil it wasn't that milk shaky - there was still a lot of un mixed coolant in the pan though.

Hm. It sound changes in the sense that I can't hear it until about 2500 ish rpm. It is pretty consistent now that I listen back to the audio.
I can hear it down to idle. I'll record mine on a cold start for reference.
Water and oil don't mix, so that would explain "unmixed coolant"

So you are saying you adjusted the valves just fine?
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mason Edmison View Post
How long is it safe to run with the VC off? Until a huge mess is made? ha.
Safe. The chain will throw the most oil. Ask me how I know. Building a small cover out of a milk jug helps a lot :p

Make sure you upload the video!
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ev13wt View Post
I can hear it down to idle. I'll record mine on a cold start for reference.
Water and oil don't mix, so that would explain "unmixed coolant"

So you are saying you adjusted the valves just fine?
I think so, yes. Had slight drag on feeler gauge with no play in the rocker arm when gauge in between valve and tappet.

Originally Posted by ev13wt View Post
Safe. The chain will throw the most oil. Ask me how I know. Building a small cover out of a milk jug helps a lot :p
Make sure you upload the video!
Good deal. Maybe I'll do this part first. Sounds exciting. I remember I saw a Eric the Car Guy video where he ran a Jeep without the VC. Blew my mind.

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Old 11-19-2018, 07:39 AM
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Oh if I were to warm the engine up before pulling the VC (shutting the engine off in between of course). Is it OK to rev it up to that 2000 rpm point to hear the sound more clearly.
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Old 11-19-2018, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mason Edmison View Post
I think so, yes. Had slight drag on feeler gauge with no play in the rocker arm when gauge in between valve and tappet.
Good deal. Maybe I'll do this part first. Sounds exciting. I remember I saw a Eric the Car Guy video where he ran a Jeep without the VC. Blew my mind.
If you could adjust all valves in the sense that every one does a small click clack when you wiggle them (at proper cam position) - your dizzy is wrong. Pull it out and reinsert it correctly. Cross fingers, start up, insert paperclip into test connector. Adjust RPM to 850. Set the dizzy to 5 on the timing light.

In "light" of this idea: you have not answered if it drops idle down if you insert the paper clip.

Also: can you set the timing the way it is rigfht now? Where is the timing? Does it jump around a lot?

Last edited by ev13wt; 11-19-2018 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 11-19-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ev13wt View Post
If you could adjust all valves in the sense that every one does a small click clack when you wiggle them (at proper cam position) - your dizzy is wrong. Pull it out and reinsert it correctly. Cross fingers, start up, insert paperclip into test connector. Adjust RPM to 850. Set the dizzy to 5 on the timing light.

In "light" of this idea: you have not answered if it drops idle down if you insert the paper clip.

Also: can you set the timing the way it is rigfht now? Where is the timing? Does it jump around a lot?
I was only able to adjust half the valves at cyl 1 TDC. The other valves were all open(tight)

I did not check my rpm when I jumped E1 and TE1 but the idle did drop, yes.

I did notice that the timing was a bit 'jumpy' with the E1 and TE1 jumped but I have it set at 5 degrees before tdc as best as I could. Jumps to about 10 - 12 degrees before TDC when I pull the jumper.
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Old 11-19-2018, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mason Edmison View Post
Oh if I were to warm the engine up before pulling the VC (shutting the engine off in between of course). Is it OK to rev it up to that 2000 rpm point to hear the sound more clearly.
I would not do that. But then again, you did say: "it drives fine".

I has got to be the chain.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...e+chain+rattle

What tensioner is in there? the 99C Vatozone special? Or OEM / kit from 22re, marlin, lce?


Open the VC. Take a long flat screwdriver and see if you can "pop" it out so it pushes against the chain again.
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