thook

For a long time I've read about brands of sensors, plugs, and various parts and which brands one should go with. I'm not a loyalist to the extreme, but I do believe in using what should be used if the vehicle is dependant on it.

Well, I've had a code 5 pop up here and there within the past few weeks and that points to O2 sensor signal. Having to stretch my money between various other things vehicle and non vehicle related, I purchased a Bosch O2 sensor for my '86 4rnr (22RE)...the one throwing the code. I wanted to go with the NGK, but ...well ...the money, ya know?

So, my question is, since the runner seems to be running pretty darn good with non-NGK/Denso sensor what is the big deal with everyone saying DO NOT use a Bosch? I mean, there seems to be something else going on with the vehicle (running rich, wanting to overheat...once), but it has been running better and getting better mileage with the Bosch. What is the actual truth of the matter? Technically?

gilby4runner

Not sure why others feel this way but with my experience i don't get the longevity out of the bosch products. With my jeep i went with what ever was the cheap fix. (College Budget) I went threw a few O2 's and a lot of spark plugs.. they just never seemed to last.

freerider17

my little bit of experience between the two companies has been that the ngk parts always lasted longer in all of my vehicles. whereas the bosch stuff did work well, but the Ngk was a little better. in my old VW i got a noticeable amount of more power using Ngk over any other company.

thook

Thanks for the input.

Okay, so performance and longevity...those are valid points. I've read many others to report the same. Does anyone have any technical reasons why they should or shouldn't be used? I suppose what I am asking there is what's the harm...if any?

Brenjen

I don't have any technical reasons but I think it's because Bosch plugs apparently don't work well in these Toyota's & the people that read something about a product being bad will invariably get the story wrong when they re-tell it; then, before you know it, ALL the products from that company are trash.

I have used Bosch products for a long time in several different makes & models of vehicles & I've never had a problem out of any of them. I've never run them in a Toyota so I can't say from experience that the Bosch bashing where they are concerned is right or wrong; it stands to reason that if even one fourth of the bashing you read on forums is true, then there must indeed be a problem with Bosch plugs being run in Toyota engines; the rest may just be that "Joe told Larry & Larry told Billy & he told Molly & she told Jim that Bosch sucks"....know what I mean?

TNRabbit

I used Bosch platinum plugs in my truck when I bought it in 2000; I put @ 65,000 miles on them and NEVER was able to get rid of the miss I'd had since installing them. I now run NGK Iridiums & no miss.

it would seem Bosch O2 sensors aren't made as well, but I've heard the sensor doesn't protrude as far into the exhaust (?) either so there may be a sampling error associated with them.

I use NGK plugs, O2 sensor, & wires & have no issues. if your original O2 sensor had crapped out, of course you're going to see an increase in fuel economy when you put a new one, regardless of brand, in your vehicle.

Yota82

Bosch spark plugs are the main problem with the company. As far as an O2 for an 86 22RE (pretty basic single wire), I would probably go with a cheap brand. The 88-95 22RE's have 4 wire pre-heated O2 sensors, those I would rather buy a repuatable brand for more $$$. For an 86 it's not such an issue.

thook

Ahhh...good. More input. Thanks.

TN...that's the 2nd time I've heard that little protrusion factor. It didn't make much sense to me considering the nature of the set-up. I mean, you've got a sealed unit there. It doesn't need to go in that far, and I don't see how the gases couldn't properly reach the sensor (in this case, the Bosch). Those gases are forced through the system by the exhaust expulsion. Pretty powerfully, in fact. Well, enough anyway. And I had taken into consideration the fact that a new one, no matter brand (to an extent), will perform better than a crapped out OEM/NGK. My whole reason for asking what I have is that I've seen so much DO NOT absolutes on this issue. Someone reading that might think (and I've wondered myself),"Oh my god! Am I going to fark up my motor?". It's misleading if someone didn't know any better. Not only that, one who did not have great results w/ a Bosch O2 may have other things happening that caused it to fail....just like they're original one.
I agree about the plugs and wires and such. I'm using Denso plugs (fortunately, they're cheap enough) and NGK wires. I can't say if there's much of difference with that and off brands because that's all I've used since I got the thing. Have you noticed much difference using the iridiums? I've wondered, but the cost was daunting.

And Yota...I put a Bosch in the '92 rnr last Dec. and it seemes to be running pretty well. After much work including the sensor replacement, it was getting around 17mpg. Which isn't great, but better than it was. However, the little wreck I had in Jan. interrupted any further assessment. It'll be up and running again in a couple weeks, so I pay attention to it.

IF these "more affordable" Bosch sensors last only half as long as an NGK or Denso they're still only half the cost. Which means...well, you can mathematize. And like I said, my original NGK I've not tested with a meter, yet. So, I don't actually know if it's dead. If it is, then it's lasted atleast five years with no troubles. If not, yo NGK!

Anyhow, thanks again. Any more input? Please...chime in.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

You can get a real 1-wire Denso O2 sensor for $30-35:
http://sparkplugs.com/

Brenjen

Well, the NGK iridiums I'm using are great. I noticed the fuel mileage is good, better than I expected & the idle is really smooth. I replaced my cap & rotor at the same time as my plugs & I fixed a vacuum leak; I'm using 10W30 Mobil1 extended performance & I have a K&N air filter. As far as I know the engine is bone stock other than those things & my fuel mileage went from 10 m.p.g. to 18.9 m.p.g. on my last fill up on 75% highway & 25% city mixed driving.

I have to attribute the majority of the fuel economy to the vacuum leak being fixed, adjusting the timing & the NGK iridium plugs. My reasoning is because I use the Mobil1 in all my vehicles & have never noticed any more than a 1/2 m.p.g. increase when switching over. The cap & rotor were changed as preventative maintenance with a cheap brand & the Denso I took off was still serviceable. The K&N was on the vehicle when I took my first mileage reading so it has nothing to do with the increase but I had to re-set the timing after installing my timing kit & water pump but I had checked the mileage before that & it was getting 11 m.p.g at that time so I'm assuming the timing was responsible for around a 1 m.p.g. increase.

TNRabbit

The only REAL difference in any spark plugs is going to be their longevity. As long as the engine is getting sufficient spark to ignite properly, it will run properly.

The iridium plugs are supposed to last for 100,000 miles plus, which is the main reason I bought them. I don't want to have to pull these damn things out again after I get my rebuild back together!

thook

Hey, that's a good price. Hmmm.....,"Excuse me, Mr. O'Reilly guy. This one doesn't work!"..hehehe.

Thank you 4crawler.

thook

Brenjen....my head is spinning...Whew! What brand O2 sensor are you using on your 4rnr?

TN....they're longevity is certainly an attractive feature. Part of the reason I use synthetic oils. So, you don't notice any more power, though, with the iridiums as opposed to regular Denso?

And 4crawler, what brands of O2 sensor have you run, currently run, and what was your result? I'd be interested to know..

MMA_Alex

as far as spark plugs go I can tell you there is definately a difference in idle between bosch, autolite, and ngk. The NGK's just idled smoother.

I always want to try iridiums, but they're never in stock, and I hate having to wait a week for parts to come in so i always just end up with the Platinums.

TNRabbit

MMA_Alex: www.sparkplugs.com

thook: I've never noticed any power increase between plugs. Probably no one would be able to on plugs alone, but most folks replace everything else when they install plugs, so they usually notice a difference.

I went from an average of 16 mpg overall to 20+ overall when I replaced my plugs, rotor, cap, wires and O2 SENSOR and cleaned out the throttle body last year. I was actually seeing up to 24 mpg on the highway before my HG went. I still got 20 mpg with the HG going south....

Brenjen

I was in a hurry & sort of ran it together, sorry. But if you take the time to read it, it will make sense...I used punctuation lol

The O2 sensor in my 4Runner is probably stock, so I'd say it's a Denso. I have not changed it because it's still good.

My last post condensed: The NGK Iridium plugs & fixing a vacuum leak gave me a fuel mileage increase of 7.4 M.P.G. or there about. How much of that was the Iridium plugs & how much was the leak? I don't know but even a 1 M.P.G. increase attributable to the plugs makes the higher price Iridiums well worth the price even if they don't go 100K miles. (but the extended plug life is why I bought them as well, not for fuel economy)

SoCal4Running

I just replaced my o2 sensor (preparing for re-test of failed smog check). I measured the the probes on both the bosch and the denso. The Bosch is 3\4" and the Denso is 1 3\16 inch. I dont know if it matters or not but well see.

Schralper

100K? HAHA!!! show me how well they're still working in 50K!
Plugs are some what of a sales gimmick, splitfire, multi tipped, etc. It's to help compensate for a poor combustion chamber design.
Much like dual plugs, unless you're talking nitro top fueler.
Try Champion plugs and tell me everything else out there isn't better!
Plugs should be somewhat lighter tan colored than coffee w/2 creams.
Some newer engines run somewhat leaner though. The leanness might be part of what causes HG failure in 3.slo's. Just my uneducated opinion, though.
Because the cyl. will run hotter more complete combustion but head issues.
Plugs build up w/ fuel additives (especially winter fuels) + oil blowby and that's why they need changing.
For the return on investment plugs and O2 seem worth the $, as they're what cause most emission failures.
O2 sensors are like all car parts, some are cheap and some are inexpensive, there is a difference.
Fast, cheap or durable you can only pick 2.
I'll take fast and durable.

Targetnut

on older style vehicles like ours I have found that NGK O2 sensors do last longer. But on average it's probably only 10%-20%. Performance wise I'm not sure you can tell the difference. Also the NGK sensors are going to fit better.

On newer vehicles, I've been seeing an awful high failure rate on the heaters in the NGK O2 sensors and Air/Fuel Ratio sensors. I'd have to say that the Bosch ones are lasting longer on the newer vehicles.

As far as plugs, Almost every Toyota I've seen with Bosch spark plugs was in my shop because of a check engines light and a misfire code.

MudHippy

1.There are no "100,000 mile" plugs, you've got the right idea there. Sorta. I have seen some "100k mile" plugs that lasted(still sparked)that long. BUT, they where THE furthest over-gapped, .020" more than stock, that I've EVER had the displeasure of removing from an otherwise perfect engine. The electrodes were severely disintegrated. Bottom line, they won't probably be working to well at 50k miles, and hardly at all by 100k miles.

2.Plug sales are "somewhat" of a gimmick, I'll give ya that. Here's why...

3.I tried Champion plugs, and they do EXACTLY what any other brand I've tried does. No complaints here.

4.Newer engines running leaner? Please explain.

5. 3.0 running too lean contributes to head gasket failure? Again, please explain. First, explain how/why the 3.0 supposedly runs lean relative to what engine(s).

6.Residual build-up on your spark plugs is a good reason to change them out. A little build-up from fuel additives is expected. BUT, if it's something like unburnt blow-by oil that's fouling them it tells you that they aren't self-cleaning and you need to run a hotter plug, OR that you have excessive blow-by oil into your cylinders, which may lead to an "OH SCHICK! THAT AIN'T GOOD!". Or it should anyway.

7.THE REAL REASON "WHY THEY(SPARK PLUGS)NEED CHANGING" is because the electrodes deteriorate during usage, causing the gap to gradually increase over their lifetime. THIS CAN'T BE AVOIDED WITH A "FANCY" SPARK PLUG OR A 100,000 MILE WARRANTY OR ONE WITH COMPONENTS MADE OF PRECIOUS METALS(It may take a little longer if they're platinums or iridiums is all). And when it does widen it takes and more energy for the spark to jump the gap, which leads to a weak spark or no spark under some conditions. This causes poor engine performance(HP/MPG).

8.Just so long as it's durable, I don't care HOW long I have to wait to get it. In most cases....

9. I would have to say stock on the 02 sensor, they last long time.