Dan_90SR5

I finally got around to reading some of the good and some of the nonsense posts in this thread. There was one comment about the injectors on the 3VZ engine and swapping in larger ones. Then someone with some sense piped up and made the comment about flow rate and duty cycle......and he hit the nail on the head. Also, to pump more fuel in an engine you need more intake air flow and better exhaust flow. Fuel does not make the power in an engine.....air makes the power.....don't believe me, do some research....I've been to school for this, so feel I've done mine already.

For those dead set on flow rates, here they are:

3VZ-FE 200 cc/min. brown connector

I couldn't tell you the duty cycle on this engine with these injectors, but I'd say that they aren't maxed out (higher than 80% duty cycle) on a truck that doesn't generally run high RPM.

An option for those set on larger injectors. You can get the injectors off an early model 7M-GE engine.

7M-GE 295cc/min. yellow connector
***DO NOT confuse these injectors with the 7M-GTE (early Supra)...those injectors are 430 cc/min (black connector).***

These have the same style connector and are low independance. Later 7M-GE engines use a different connector (light green) and run on a high independance.

To continue on the the other comment about the supercharger on the 3VZ (which would make it a 3VZ-FZE w/Camry heads). I'd go ahead and switch to the 7M-GE injectors. or even the 4A-GZE injectors (365 cc/min. dark orange connector).

Hope this helps those people wanting to go up to larger injectors. Also, higher fuel pressure would help as well.....more fuel and better atomization. Also with that better ignition is a big thing that's overlooked on this board.

Ok, I have rambled on for long enough, you guys should get the point now.

gtm130

how would you go about using an additional injector? wouldnt the supra injectors and an inline fuel pump fix that maybe a fuel computer too?

how would a body lift give clearance on the back side of the engine? what about a cowl hood?

Dan_90SR5

Yes, larger injectors would answer this problem, BUT NOT the Supra injectors. Those would be too large except for more boost than I'd advise for this engine. I'd say that the MR2 injectors (4A-GZE) would be the largest that I'd go with. Also, if you think about it, those are the injectors that Toyota thought best for that factory supercharged engine, so they might just be just right. Without doing to calculations, I couldn't tell you the exact sized injectors needed.

Keep in mind that you almost have to stick with the injectors that I have listed unless going to an aftermarket injector for these same engine because the independence that these injectors are run on. The high independence injectors will not work right with the stock ECU. I do know that there is a way to modify the wiring to make the higher indepence injectors to work, but I don't know exactly how. Also, the injectors that I have listed on here are "plug 'n' play"......they will plug right up to your stock connections.

Just to touch on the addition injectors.......you have to have an injector controller or a stand alone ECU. I think that you'd be best off financially and ease of install with the Toyota injectors.

gtm130

thanks, ill look into the mr2's

also where did you get the heads for 75? i cant seem to find em for less than 450.

if i did the injectors while rebuilding and added the sc later would i be running too rich? or would the ecu learn and fix it?

Highland Runner

Dan 90SR5, I asked about this head swap long ago and no one knew about it, or was going to try it. I'm glad someone is doing it, and may help 3.0 performance a lot. My question is with the timing belt set up. Will the stock timing belt work, or are you going with a different length? Do the 3VZ-FE heads have seperate drive sprockets or is one cam gear driven off the other like the 5VZ? Any pics yet? Thanks

Dan_90SR5

**gtm130** I'd say get the heads and the intake first. Dry assemble them (with no gaskets or bolts)....find a friend that has a supercharged 5VZ and make sure that you'll be able to use the supercharger or not....because I'm not positive that you will be able to. That's an aftermarket part and I can't say 100%. To be honest, I don't know anyone that has one to look at it and give you input on it. Do some research first.

As for the injectors.....you'll have to tear the intake plenum off to mount the supercharger anyway, why not wait till then to add the injectors. I'm not sure if the computer will read a rich mixture and readjust or if can even readjust to injectors almost twice the size. I would say that with the added air and exhaust flow you should be fine with the 4A-GZE injectors.

**Highland Runner** The heads are just like the 5VZ heads in that they have one cam gear and then internal sprockets that mesh between the 2 cams. All Toyota FE heads have this set-up....only the GE heads have 2 cam gears per head......and for that matter Toyota does not make a GE head for anything other than inline engines.

I'd recommend that anyone that is planning this head swap should pic up a Toyota Tech Manual, Chiltons or Hayes manual for both vehicles. This will help you put this engine together and make it work.

The timing belt, I'm still unsure about because it isn't run exactly the same on both engines. I would still imagine that the 3VZ-FE belt will work. Your parts store should be able to help with this if not. Some people with 7A-FE engine (Celica) have swaped the 4A-GE head onto that engine and use a Porsche 944 timing belt......they had to have some help to figure that out. I'll let you know if I figure it out, but I'm unsure at this point and not sure when I'll get this project done.......I'm out of money and going through a divorce......lawyers suck, lol.

gtm130

thanks for all the help, now i just have to see if i can get the money together

good luck with the lawyers

TRunner

Wish I would known about this before getting my heads rebuilt and gasket kit purchased.... That sounds fun!

gwhayduke

Dan...
I understand the reason for the 3VZFE heads...24 valves. But I'm curious why you want to put them on the 3VZE. How do the bore and stroke compare on the two engines? Aren't they identical? Wouldn't it just be easier to drop in a complete 3VZFE?

gtm130

i think his reasoning was that they are cheaper to get just the heads, especially if he already has a good block. but i could be wrong

elripster

My buddy inquired into that at a local indepenedent Yota service place. Given the Camry's engine orientation and transaxle, I believe there will be issues with the motor mounts, bell housing, and possibly location of other components. Otherwise, wouldn't it be nice to just bolt up the whole motor as is?

Frank

Dan_90SR5

I think that the two responces before mine hit the nail on the head. A new 3VZ-FE would cost me about $2400. I can build this engine up for about half of that. Other issues are that the blocks are not exactly the same and the motor mounts might or might not bolt up correctly. Another issue is the oil pick-up on a transversly mount engine versus a RWD application are run different. Again, another minor problem, but a problem non-the-less.

As far as bore and stroke, yes, these engines are exactly identical. The only issure that I can think of with this application is that you will get your peak HP at a higher RPM. To me, that isn't going to kill me....HP is HP when it comes to the 3VZ-E.

gwhayduke

I was thinking about this again today...I remember and worked on Buick V8's back in the 60's and 70's. The hottest one I remember was Dad's '69 400, with 10.5:1 compression ratio. Buicks had torque that came on low and lasted through the midrange. They had little tiny valves compared with other V8's which delivered higher intake velocities...coupled with some wild cams and they were great, torquey engines.

Those 24 valve heads are gonna be great for you if you're after HP and high rpm torque, but I like the fact that the torque comes on low on the 3VZE. I just wish there was more of it.

Adam F

Wow....the Camry head swap SOUNDS really easy.

What year Camry am I looking at as a donor?

Dan_90SR5

92-93 Camry or 92-93 Lexus ES300

**gwhayduk**
I know exactly what you mean about the low end torque. I wish that I'd have it with this swap too, but I started this just to prove that the 3VZ isn't just a block of scrap iron.

I also don't think that the low-end is going to suffer much at all. I mean you are going to have to make custom headers.....this will yeild some more HP. I've figured about 200hp(headers, larger exhaust, intake) when this swap is complete. So with 200hp max, it should still have very close to the same to torque rating as the normal 3VZ at low end. I posted figures before, but lets look at them again.

3VZ-E(stock) 150hp@4800RPM 180lb/ft@3800RPM
3VZ-FE(stock) 185hp@5200RPM 203lb/ft@4400RPM
3VZ-FE(**) 200hp@5200RPM 213lb/ft@4400RPM

**Alright, these are educated guesses based on what I've seen on dyno results with other cars with intake, headers and full exhaust (could be less, I understand this). The RPM for peak hp and torque is probably still close. So, the stock engine makes 150hp at 4800RPM (400RPM below the 3VZ-FE).....it would be a good guess to say that the head swap engine is making the same or more at that same RPM. The same would go with the torque. Now when gear properly according to tires, the head swap engine will make a great platform without having to do a complete engine swap up to the 5VZ-FE.

Another reason for this swap is to give people an option that is cheaper and comparible in HP to the stock 5VZ-FE. Yes, with more mods, the 5VZ will have more HP, but at a higher cost. One of the guys is talking about using the 5VZ supercharger on this engine. We've all seen turbocharged 3VZs, so if it fits, why not? Yes, there is the cost on that, but again still cheaper than a supercharged 5VZ, right? It's all about cheaper options for the people with the old "3.slow" as it's so fondly been labeled.

elripster

You can fix this problem real easy with gearing. (Even if you sacrifice some low end, it will only be an issue in 1st gear, after that is all about where you shift.) Even if you sacrificed some low end for high, if you geared the truck a little under (where a 5speed is with 33's and .488's), it would be WAY faster and the resolved torque at the wheel will be increased. You'd bomb hills on the freeway much better as well as get up and go more quickly.

This is where you have to ask yourself what you wanna do. If you want to go faster with more low/mid torque/taller gearing, you really need to build a stroker or put in a much larger motor. All the breathing mods simply don't make more torque down low where restrictions aren't an issue. All things equal, it's a lot easier to get low end grunt with gearing than it is with the engine.

Frank

Praufet

I emailed DOA a long time ago and they said the bolt patterns are different on the 3vz-e heads and the 3vz-fe heads otherwise I would've gone for the swap.

Epic Ed

Excellent post!

Just wanted to chime in with some input about the mods I recently made. A little background -- some of you may remember my engine threw a rod and gernaded out both sides of the block a couple of months ago. This led to me looking for a remanufactured engine.

I had decided that a full swap up to a 3.4L engine wasn't going to be financially feasible, especially since I don't have the option of doing the work myself. I'm paying the labor to get all this engine stuff done.

I already had a HiFlow cat, Dynomax muffler, and 2 1/4 exhaust installed last year noticed a slight HP improvement. Headers were next and I had Downey ceramic -coated headers installed in May. Late May is when my engine blew up and I sent the heads out to be ported and polished, then dropped those on to the new engine block.

Most importantly, I had my gearing ratios re-done. I'm drivning on 31x10.50's currently, but plan to bump up to a 32 or 33in tires soon, so I went with the 4.88 gears. I can't tell you how much of a difference this made, especially for the uphill stuff.

I finally got the finished product back a couple of weeks ago and promptly took a road trip up to Yosemite (about 1200 miles roundtrip). I couldn't be happier! Yeah, I spent a lot of bucks getting this done, but not nearly as much as I would have doing an engine swap or buying a new ride. The only thing left I'd like to do (engine performance-wise) is a larger throttle body. I decided against adding any of the ignition mods for now, and I'm sufficiently please at the improvements I've noticed from simply opening up the air flow and changing the gearing ratio. There isn't a mod I've done that I wouldn't recommend.

Ed

gwhayduke

I measured the AFM intake today...1.7 inches square.

That's a cross-sectional area of 2.9 square inches....

The cross sectional area of the throttle body is 3.7 square inches minus the butterfly shaft 0.9 square inches = 2.8 square inches.

Someone have a 3.4 to measure and compare? A good set of calipers will do.

Praufet

is there any larger afm we can use with our cars, maybe something from a pre- 96 supra or something like that? Or maybe even something non-Toyota?