Flat cam lobes
09-19-2010, 02:06 PM
#81
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Chef glad you got it figured out. Having followed your thread I was wondering if your cam might have been the problem. Let us know how that 261works out. I would also recommend the adjustable can gear from LCE. So far I like 268 from EB but the torque curve comes in a little latter than I want, so this week I will retard the cam gear a little and see how that works. Nice to be able to dial it in a little.
Later
Later
Last edited by TinMan; 09-19-2010 at 02:09 PM.
09-20-2010, 10:36 AM
#82
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It took me a while to get to Toyota and pick up my Rocker Arm Shaft.
To my suprise they are "updated" A new shaft from TOYOTA doesn't have the oil groove, instead it has 3 holes drilled into it.
SO
ALTROM Shaft = Toyota Shaft. Both say Made in Japan and as far as I can tell are exactly the same. So Altrom must buy from the original manufacturer.
ALTROM Adjusting Screws = Toyota adjusting screws. Both say made in Japan, and look identical. With a swirl polish to the tip. Again Altrom must buy these direct from the original manufacturer.
I can't find ANY new Rocker Arms through anyone but Toyota that are oem.
To my suprise they are "updated" A new shaft from TOYOTA doesn't have the oil groove, instead it has 3 holes drilled into it.
SO
ALTROM Shaft = Toyota Shaft. Both say Made in Japan and as far as I can tell are exactly the same. So Altrom must buy from the original manufacturer.
ALTROM Adjusting Screws = Toyota adjusting screws. Both say made in Japan, and look identical. With a swirl polish to the tip. Again Altrom must buy these direct from the original manufacturer.
I can't find ANY new Rocker Arms through anyone but Toyota that are oem.
09-20-2010, 11:35 AM
#84
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Its nice to know I can get toyota parts from napa.....
Napa sight even says when the part is from altrom.
Is the altrom timing kit all toyota as well...timing cover?
Napa sight even says when the part is from altrom.
Is the altrom timing kit all toyota as well...timing cover?
09-20-2010, 11:46 AM
#85
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the different shafts are consistent with looking at toyotapartszone:
SHAFT SUB-ASSY, VALVE ROCKER, NO.1
13911-38011 Replaced by: 13911-35010
SHAFT SUB-ASSY, VALVE ROCKER, NO.2
13912-38011 Replaced by: 13912-35010
also looks as if they updated these too:
SUPPORT, VALVE ROCKER, NO.1
13951-38012 Replaced by: 13951-35010
SCREW OR BOLT(FOR VALVE ROCKER SHAFT LOCK)
93210-16008 Replaced by: 93210-56008
but no change in SUPPORT, VALVE ROCKER, NO.2, NO.3 or NO.4 though. hmmmm wonder why that is ???? related to the change in rocker shaft oiling maybe? Which almost leads me to believe to you have to use the updated SUPPORT, VALVE ROCKER, NO.1 and SCREW OR BOLT(FOR VALVE ROCKER SHAFT LOCK) in order to use the newer shafts? That question I am sure would stump the parts counter. lol.
no changes in the rocker arms, adjusters/nuts, camshaft, rockers arm compression springs or valve springs themselves.
SHAFT SUB-ASSY, VALVE ROCKER, NO.1
13911-38011 Replaced by: 13911-35010
SHAFT SUB-ASSY, VALVE ROCKER, NO.2
13912-38011 Replaced by: 13912-35010
also looks as if they updated these too:
SUPPORT, VALVE ROCKER, NO.1
13951-38012 Replaced by: 13951-35010
SCREW OR BOLT(FOR VALVE ROCKER SHAFT LOCK)
93210-16008 Replaced by: 93210-56008
but no change in SUPPORT, VALVE ROCKER, NO.2, NO.3 or NO.4 though. hmmmm wonder why that is ???? related to the change in rocker shaft oiling maybe? Which almost leads me to believe to you have to use the updated SUPPORT, VALVE ROCKER, NO.1 and SCREW OR BOLT(FOR VALVE ROCKER SHAFT LOCK) in order to use the newer shafts? That question I am sure would stump the parts counter. lol.
no changes in the rocker arms, adjusters/nuts, camshaft, rockers arm compression springs or valve springs themselves.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 09-20-2010 at 11:53 AM.
09-20-2010, 12:14 PM
#86
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09-20-2010, 12:19 PM
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09-20-2010, 12:22 PM
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Toyota often "updates" their catalog numbers for parts.
Not always does this mean there is an actual difference in the part it's self.
All the OEM parts fucntion as designed and work with all the older OEM parts.
09-20-2010, 12:25 PM
#89
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09-20-2010, 05:36 PM
#90
10-01-2010, 10:53 AM
#92
I found some more interesting info on 22RE camshafts.
http://www.toysport.com/Technical%20...tech_notes.htm
Also of note from that site is this, regarding factory camshafts and aftermarket/reground camshafts.
http://www.toysport.com/New%20Produc...0Camshafts.htm
Modifying the 20R / 22R / 22RE / 22RTE Engines
CYLINDER HEAD:
The choice in camshafts from many sources, must be carefully considered. High lift and long duration cams may affect the rocker arm geometry (and oil spraying function of the oil feed). Unless you take the time to ensure that the rocker arms are repositioned correctly (modifying the rocker assembly) do not even attempt. The long stroke / low RPM design of the engine dictates very mild cam lift and duration. You cannot redesign an engine with camshafts! Mild cams up to about 280 duration will work with the EFI with some adjustments to the AFM (air flow meter).
Stiffer valve springs are a safeguard from valve-float, but will not enhance performance since the best cam profiles will run fine with stock valve springs. An adjustable camshaft gear will allow the most accurate setting (remember that a Celica is totally different from a 4WD Pick-up).
CYLINDER HEAD:
The choice in camshafts from many sources, must be carefully considered. High lift and long duration cams may affect the rocker arm geometry (and oil spraying function of the oil feed). Unless you take the time to ensure that the rocker arms are repositioned correctly (modifying the rocker assembly) do not even attempt. The long stroke / low RPM design of the engine dictates very mild cam lift and duration. You cannot redesign an engine with camshafts! Mild cams up to about 280 duration will work with the EFI with some adjustments to the AFM (air flow meter).
Stiffer valve springs are a safeguard from valve-float, but will not enhance performance since the best cam profiles will run fine with stock valve springs. An adjustable camshaft gear will allow the most accurate setting (remember that a Celica is totally different from a 4WD Pick-up).
Also of note from that site is this, regarding factory camshafts and aftermarket/reground camshafts.
We have contracted with this OEM supplier since they manufacture the new forged camshafts using the "chilled casting" method. The factory Toyota cams are manufactured in this process. This is superior to normal casting (aftermarket cams) that need trouble prone heat-treatment on "soft" lobes and journals after machining. Most camshafts (reground or new) cast in another process are not even heat-treated. Chill casting hardens the complete camshaft, like a steel billet.
08-15-2011, 07:59 AM
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long story short. i bought an 85 4runner with valve train noise and found a broken #2 exhaust valve spring replaced all springs and locks. though the sound was much quitter it still had a tic. so i found this thread and went and took a better look at the cam. sure enough i found flat spots on some lobes and a wear ridge i could feel with my finger nail. so i ordered a new cam and rockers and will replace them this weekend. thanks for the great info. i will post my result as soon as i get the parts changed
08-15-2011, 12:23 PM
#94
Chef glad you got it figured out. Having followed your thread I was wondering if your cam might have been the problem. Let us know how that 261works out. I would also recommend the adjustable can gear from LCE. So far I like 268 from EB but the torque curve comes in a little latter than I want, so this week I will retard the cam gear a little and see how that works. Nice to be able to dial it in a little.
Later
Later
Far as my experience,..... not sure if you saw on there(sorry, just can't remember over a year of posts).... but I ended up fully rebuilding the motor, using a different block, etc.(The first machinist screwed up the bore/out of round, the crank, out of round and ground to the max, the cam/destroyed it with a TERRIBLE grind, the timing cover install and he even cracked the block on the face/timing cover area. OH YEAH... he ''LOST'' my LCE Deluxe Timing Kit as well! ..oh... right....'then he tried to SELL ME ONE!'...
Anywhooooooooo, ... I slapped the 261 I broke in on the last motor, into this motor, ...same rocker assembly that I'd already put all new adjusters in, btw, .... and it's PURRING! used Hastings-USA Rings, Sansai(?) OEM Japanese Bearings, .10 and .10 over.... LOVING it! NO smoking, not a leak... and PERTINENT TO THIS THREAD.......
.............I LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEE THIS 261 CAM FROM ENGNBLDR! The LCE header doesn't hurt to compliment it, nor the lil head work.... but even before all that, in that last screwed up block, etc., .... IT GAVE ME ALMOST A GEAR ON HILLS!
Rock on, Trainwreck..... I really appreciate you sharing your professional experience with us! You don't have to do that... and yet, you do, and without being an arrogant toad, like others I've met with your experience! hahhaa.
09-11-2011, 06:46 AM
#95
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Another Flat Cam Lobe
It it's of any interest, I have another case of a failed EP32 aftermarket cam. I bought a used head a couple years ago from a shop that supposedly was "New, not rebuilt and can't have over 150 miles on it!" Well, from looking at it I knew it had a lot more than 150 miles on it but I wanted it mainly for the EFI unit that came with it.
It sat on a shelf in my garage for a couple years until last week when I took a close look at it, thinking I could use it on my 22R that I'm rebuilding.
It is a low mileage head, based on it's cleanliness and lack of wear, everywhere but the number 3 exhaust cam lobe! And the adjusting screws. The lobe is very neatly worn flat on the opening ramp and on the tip of the lobe.
With the exception of the cam and adjusting screws, everything else on this head seems OK. The valve seats are in very good shape. I think I will use it after replacing the valves and of course the cam. I'd keep the valves but there are no manufacturer's markings at all on them, which makes me nervous. I ordered a new set from Beck Arnley that are supposedly made in Japan.
The head itself looks well made, although I know you can't tell anything about metallurgy by looking at a casting. It has a serial number 3318016P stamped on it in two places.
I'm just posting this info in case it's of any interest at this late date in the thread. And, thanks Trainwreck for this and the ring seating thread, they have both probably saved me a few headaches.
I checked with one vendor selling new "Made in USA" cams and it turns out the casting is not made in USA, just the machine work is done here. Have to be both a detective and a lawyer when buying 22R parts.
Bob
It sat on a shelf in my garage for a couple years until last week when I took a close look at it, thinking I could use it on my 22R that I'm rebuilding.
It is a low mileage head, based on it's cleanliness and lack of wear, everywhere but the number 3 exhaust cam lobe! And the adjusting screws. The lobe is very neatly worn flat on the opening ramp and on the tip of the lobe.
With the exception of the cam and adjusting screws, everything else on this head seems OK. The valve seats are in very good shape. I think I will use it after replacing the valves and of course the cam. I'd keep the valves but there are no manufacturer's markings at all on them, which makes me nervous. I ordered a new set from Beck Arnley that are supposedly made in Japan.
The head itself looks well made, although I know you can't tell anything about metallurgy by looking at a casting. It has a serial number 3318016P stamped on it in two places.
I'm just posting this info in case it's of any interest at this late date in the thread. And, thanks Trainwreck for this and the ring seating thread, they have both probably saved me a few headaches.
I checked with one vendor selling new "Made in USA" cams and it turns out the casting is not made in USA, just the machine work is done here. Have to be both a detective and a lawyer when buying 22R parts.
Bob
09-14-2011, 06:15 AM
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Well I changed the cam, rocker tips, and rocker shafts. I did not replace the rockers because they are all within spec, I still have the noise and it seems to be intermittent. If I put a scope on the front intake valve cover stud I can really hear it, very faint on the other three. So since I didn't mic the shaft stands I don't know what the clearance between the shaft o.d. and the stand i.d. is. It did seem like a sloppy fit when i assembled. so now I'm thinking the noise is the shaft moving in the stands. Anyone else have this problem?
10-10-2011, 07:50 PM
#98
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9hpcastiron,
Some of these types of noises can be very hard to nail down.
If I were to make a wild guess out of my head, I'd say there is a possibility that the rockers are actually pulling away from the towers and then slamming back into them.
This can happen if the face of the rocker or cam lobe are slightly at an angle to eachother.
Another cause of this can be a weak rocker spring. I always stretch them out a little bit and never collaps the rocker assembly so I don't crush the springs.
Try turning the engine over slowly by hand and looking to see if the rockers slide away from the towers. I have done this test, and seen this happen.
Some of these types of noises can be very hard to nail down.
If I were to make a wild guess out of my head, I'd say there is a possibility that the rockers are actually pulling away from the towers and then slamming back into them.
This can happen if the face of the rocker or cam lobe are slightly at an angle to eachother.
Another cause of this can be a weak rocker spring. I always stretch them out a little bit and never collaps the rocker assembly so I don't crush the springs.
Try turning the engine over slowly by hand and looking to see if the rockers slide away from the towers. I have done this test, and seen this happen.
10-10-2011, 08:01 PM
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If I was doing it again I think I'd go with higher compression. The "new" engine runs great but runs like the stocker that it is.
Bob
04-13-2012, 09:08 PM
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An update, I have seen a huge amount of flat cams lately. These are a cam I hadnt seen before. With some looking around I found the source. EPWI fully loaded new heads. The Cam is marked with a full date and "xm" on the back end. EPWI is a company that quite a few machine shops order parts from so a lot of these heads are now floating around out there.
