Trainwreckinseattle

Makes pretty good sence to me

greatskiiiier

xxxtreme beat me to this one!

engnbldr

>>>*This is called a "ramp" in the industry. Without getting too technical which usually ends up with me confusing myself..*LOL**..

*The cam lobe is laid out linear on a chart, this way we can see the actual lobe rise at any point through 360 degrees of rotation. Then math balances spring load against mass, which simply means check your valve springs.

Perfection would be to open the valve fully and instantly when it needs to be, but physics would make things go BANG if we tried that.

So the cam action is actually very gradual and mellow even though things appear to be moving like the dickens in there. For the first few degrees of duration, the valve barely moves. As the lobe progresses, the follower is forced into motion, this motion is accelerated and increased at the valve by the rocker arm ratio. That is why the rocker arm geometry is so important, change that and you change the valve motion.

*Then nothing is straight up and down which is why I don't have much hair from doing all of the math.

So yes, most higher lift/longer duration camshafts will have some changes to the lobe shape, not all suppliers do this though. Easy to tell, they will require larger lash settings and tend to run noisier if adding lift to a stock lobe shape.

Two or our designs I did myself, the third one I just swiped, but then even modified that lobe shape slightly since the early on efforts kind of rattled.

There is no way to actually see that, and it's impossible to measure a camshaft with mics. Total duration is also not a measurable figure, which is why we all use the term "advertised" duration for the total. It's just a mathematical assumption.

So the answer is yes, mass and motion has to be taken into account with the actual lobe shape or things can go flying off into never never land....*EB

Trainwreckinseattle

With the EPWI fully loaded heads and a stock rate EP-32 cam shouldn't all values be "NEW" and similar or the same as OEM. If manufactured properly and all work well with eachother. Since there is no valve cut or seat cut. It's all new.

Please keep in mind. I have no idea who manufactures all these parts and this head and related components are probably reboxed into a million other companies boxes. This "New Fully Loaded Head" is sold under at least 3 other brand names that I know of besides EPWI.

From what I personally seen people buy these cams WITH the rest of the head, install them and then have a cam failure within a very short distance. Even though all geometry should be like new.

I understand things like RTV in oil passages can happen, Rocker arms can already be damaged. But that would also destroy a similar proportion of Factory cams, but it doesn't

To put it straight *EB do you think there is a problem with these aftermarket cams? Or do you think the high rate of failures are on how and what the customer does?

HighLux

Welcome to cams 101. Thanks guys...Im soaking it all in.

TinMan

Once again great little thread here.

This now effects me more than just a little education. I figured out the Loud "tick" in the new to me 94 pickup. The No 4 exhaust lobe is flat. I don't know why I didn't see the first time I went in to adjust the valve. But took it wheeling this weekend, and it got worse. So Tuesday I took the cover off again, set no 1 to TDC, checked that no 4 was tight, and what do you know no 4 exhaust was loose. Rolled it around 180 and the valve lash was perfect right at .012. Got to looking real good. And you can plainly see that the lobe is almost round.

This engine only has about 4k miles on it. I have all the receipts, I can tell you that the cam is a LCE pro street cam. Lifters were aftermarket from a wholesaler, not from Engbldr. I will look today to see if the lifters were installed correctly. I can tell you that the lifter surface does not look the same as OEM. These are longer, and not as wide. The head also has over sized stainless valves, and dual heavy valve springs, which I am reading now as a no no. So the heavy, dual valve springs could have also done it. I understand that if you are going to use heavy or dual valve springs in any application, it should not be done until after cam break in. Which would be a real pain in the 22re.

Luckily I have a stock head with 268 cam sitting on the shelf from Ted. I am about 3/4 the way done pulling the old head. will have it off tonight. So I plan to put the EPN head on with a OEM lifter assembly. The OEM lifters were checked and resurfaced by the local machinist. I plan to coat the lobes with grease like Ted said, then poor a quart of oil over the valve train like you said. I will also put the zinc additive in on start up. Then do the 30 minutes at 2000 - 2500 rpms and hope for the best.

If you would like for me to send you the lifters and cam when I get it out just let me know.

Later

xxxtreme22r

EB has not mentioned about the cam "breakin" either. As I am almost positive this would have something to do with it as well. Like I had mentioned before, it's probably not just the cam or just the no break in, it's most likely a combo of a bunch of stuff going on.


and to the above poster, there is no such thing as stronger than OEM rocker arms. Period.

Trainwreckinseattle

If you have receipts for all new parts being used. I would be calling the people who supplied the parts. I would at least try to get my money back. Personally I also would go back to dead stock I don't trust ANY aftermarket cams. And after hearing from Ted, I don't trust any aftermarket Rockers either. I'd rather have an engine that lasts 100K rather than an engine that produces 8 more horsepower but fails after 4K miles.

I hope this thread can save at least one person from having to go through all this trouble. Knowledge will set you free.

saitotiktmdog

If the cam was a regrind or a hard welded cam its possible that it was not hardened correctly. That would be my guess. LCE states when you get a cam from them and you do not also get new rocker arms that they will not cover any warranty issues with the cam. IE premature failure.

Trainwreckinseattle

well for the warranty, I guess it's a good thing he purchased new rockers.

Hopefully he puts in factory Rockers and a factory Cam, either reground and resurfaced or really nice used condition. Then he won't have to worry about warranties it will just work.

TinMan

Problem is I didn't pay for any of these parts or do the installation. I bought the truck with a slight valve tick. So I think going after warranty claims is a mute point. Luckily I got the truck for for less than I would have paid for the gearing lockers and tranny work that has been done to it. So it does not really hurt my feelings to have to redo the cam. And I just happen to have everything needed sitting here or on the way. I don't have a stock cam though so I will use the EB268. And try to do it right. Everything else is OEM. I will post up how it goes. Later

TinMan

Turns out I was wrong, it was not the cam that failed, it was the after market rockers.



I did damage the cam. But not really flattened it. Shame really it was a good cam.


New head will go in with OEM rockers.

Spent the last two hours chasing the head bolt threads.

Later

yotafreakshow

This thread will probably save me, but I'll never know because I'm pulling the new cam out of my new head and my stock cam is going in the engine with the stock rockers, when I finally get to that point. No need to chance it. They are all in great shape and hopefully I won't have to ever think about it again. I feel so free!

xxxtreme22r

which cam is in the new head?

Trainwreckinseattle

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Unfortunatly there is almost no way to know which started the failure, the cam or the rockers.

I hope whatever you choose to put back into your engine works well and lasts for many many miles.

TinMan

Thanks, unfortunately it is not a choice at this point. The stuff going back in is what I have here. No money to use anything else. But they are good parts. Lots of people have good luck with Ted's heads. Tomorrow I will start the reassembly. I cleaned the timing chain area, head surface, and piston tops tonight.

This is what is going back in.

Top line timing chain set with steel drivers side rail.
Oil pump from EB.
OEM water pump.
Stock head, with 268 cam from EB.
OEM lifter assembly.

later

Trainwreckinseattle

Just a little note, Many engine rebuild shops order parts from Altrom. It is a very large wholesale only distributor that imports a lot of parts directly from Japan. Also many online companies like 22RE.COM carry the full line of Altrom parts. IF you look on their website you will see "Altrom" on many boxes in the pictures.

I took some time this week to order some parts. I also will have some Factory "Toyota" rockers, shafts, and adjuster screws for comparison on Monday.
Just some comparison tech photos here. I will take pictures of the "Toyota" parts to see if they are the same.


Ok first picture is of Altroms Adjuster screws. These LOOK exactly like oem, same length, same color, same polished bright tip. The box says made in Japan. They are 1.07 Each my cost




Second picture is of the Altrom Rocker Arms. These look nothing like OEM. I would love if anyone recognizes them of the type that fail? The Rocker Pad looks a lot like the ones that were mangled in TinMans post. Large rectangle face with sharp corners. These are 3.49 Each my cost.

*** note the "bronze" color of the adjuster screw, even the shaft has that bronze color. They are slightly shorter than the "oem" ones and have a smaller neck where you adjust them with a flat head screwdriver. They also have "black" colored nuts. I also noticed that they had a small "BB" sized round casting on the side of the rocker in the middle.




Third picture is of Altroms Shaft. This Says made in Japan, but doesn't look like the old oem ones. It will be interesting on monday to actually look at a new "Toyota" shaft. Maybe they made some changes? These are 23.91 Each my cost.

***** instead of a oil line, these have three seperate holes drilled




And finally a picture of an original Factory Toyota rocker shaft. Notice the single oil hole, and a groove cut. This is how the rockers get oiled.

wvboy

Yota tech is great.

I've been troubleshooting a truck I picked up pretty cheap and found a worn cam in it today, quick search and more info than I can soak up in one visit.

I have a spare cam and rockers (unknown mfg maybe original) in good shape that will be going in the truck while I get enough parts together to build a new engine.

Thanks for all the info guys, I'll be putting this forum to good use when I start ordering parts.

TinMan

Agreed, Yotatech it a great tool. But it still doesn't keep you from screwing up like I did today. I installed the head on my 94 with the dowel on the cam in the 6 o'clock position. Could not believe I did it when I went to put on the cam gear. I had to go the Autozone and pic up a felpro gasket. I don't really like Felpro head gaskets. But that is what was on it and it was holding. So we will see if it holds. And then to add insult to injury, I was leaning over the top of the timing chain holding a small allen wrench. It slipped out of my hand and down into the timing cover, When I went to get it out with a magnet, it fell completely into the oil pan. So tomorrow I get to drop the diff, and take the oil pan off again. What really pissed me off was I was seriously taking my time, and following the steps in the FSM, even though I have done it a few times, and read the FSM hundreds of times. Just not my day I guess.

Later

TinMan

Trainwreck, if you want I can send you the rocker that failed on mine, and you can match it up with the Altrom rockers you have. just PM your address and I will get it in the mail.