coil to leaf conversion
10-04-2006, 02:54 PM
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coil to leaf conversion
i'm thinking about converting my coil rear to leaf. what leafs are the best match? does anyone know what vehicle would be best to match up to this project? or are there new ones, sizes, # of leafs, arch i could buy new?
10-04-2006, 06:59 PM
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check out this thread
Having had coils and leafs on my 95 runner I can verify this is a very false statment. With leafs you get more travel, more stabiliy, better load carrying, with the only draw back being axlewrap, but thats not even that bad with good leafs.
A well built 4-link is superior to leafs, however without doing serious mods to the vehile this isnt a feasible task, when using stock locations you cannot effectivally go above 3". Check out Flygensteins rig for a custom rear 4-link.
As for the original question, I went with Alcans on mine. I found that the springs that AllPro makes are maxed out, weight wise, on an empty runner. I dont beleive TG was around when I did the swap, but they now sell the full rear leaf swap kit. I highly reccommend this swap, as I have said in numerous threads on the forum, do a search and you will see lots of people have done this for the reasons i listed above. If you like to carry a ton of weight, camping, etc then I would go with custom alcans, if you just wheel it the TG's should be good, maybe even the AllPro's. I know a guy who used the AllPro's and he kept have to add leaves to his becuse they didnt like the weight of the runner.
Here are some photos from my swap
Having had coils and leafs on my 95 runner I can verify this is a very false statment. With leafs you get more travel, more stabiliy, better load carrying, with the only draw back being axlewrap, but thats not even that bad with good leafs.
A well built 4-link is superior to leafs, however without doing serious mods to the vehile this isnt a feasible task, when using stock locations you cannot effectivally go above 3". Check out Flygensteins rig for a custom rear 4-link.
As for the original question, I went with Alcans on mine. I found that the springs that AllPro makes are maxed out, weight wise, on an empty runner. I dont beleive TG was around when I did the swap, but they now sell the full rear leaf swap kit. I highly reccommend this swap, as I have said in numerous threads on the forum, do a search and you will see lots of people have done this for the reasons i listed above. If you like to carry a ton of weight, camping, etc then I would go with custom alcans, if you just wheel it the TG's should be good, maybe even the AllPro's. I know a guy who used the AllPro's and he kept have to add leaves to his becuse they didnt like the weight of the runner.
Here are some photos from my swap
Last edited by AH64ID; 10-04-2006 at 07:05 PM.
10-04-2006, 09:01 PM
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How did you deal with setting the pinion angle? I've been thinking about swapping a 4Runner axle into my pickup (cheapest way to get 4.56 gears I can find), how to properly set that angle has been my biggest hangup.
As for what leafs? 63" Chevy's are a popular swap on pickups(I'm doing it) because they flex like mad, and can still carry a good amount of weight, plus you can pick them up at a junk yard for dirt cheap ($23.99/spring at my local yard)
As for what leafs? 63" Chevy's are a popular swap on pickups(I'm doing it) because they flex like mad, and can still carry a good amount of weight, plus you can pick them up at a junk yard for dirt cheap ($23.99/spring at my local yard)
10-04-2006, 10:40 PM
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first off you dont have to swap the whole axle, you just swap the 3rd member, takes about an hour, and there is no messing with gears.
As far as setting the pinion angle what you want to do is prep the axle and set the perch on the axle, then lower the weight of the rig on the springs.. rotate the axle as needed for propper angle, then tack weld.. Raise the weight off the axle and fully weld.
Yes lots of people use 63" chevys, i have seen very mixed results with that.. from needing 4-6" blocks, to not needing blocks. Personally I am quite happy with the 56"ers.
As far as setting the pinion angle what you want to do is prep the axle and set the perch on the axle, then lower the weight of the rig on the springs.. rotate the axle as needed for propper angle, then tack weld.. Raise the weight off the axle and fully weld.
Yes lots of people use 63" chevys, i have seen very mixed results with that.. from needing 4-6" blocks, to not needing blocks. Personally I am quite happy with the 56"ers.
10-05-2006, 08:06 AM
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dude! thats an impressive swap. and photo detailed well. that really helped alot. i've done some spring work before but in and on stock locations. nothing like the custom job you did or am considering now. i will have to give this more thought as well as securing a vehicle for the inevitable delays in completion.
Last edited by snapankle; 10-05-2006 at 08:08 AM.
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10-05-2006, 09:03 AM
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dude! thats an impressive swap. and photo detailed well. that really helped alot. i've done some spring work before but in and on stock locations. nothing like the custom job you did or am considering now. i will have to give this more thought as well as securing a vehicle for the inevitable delays in completion.
Last edited by AH64ID; 10-05-2006 at 09:12 AM.
10-05-2006, 10:43 AM
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they are 4" lift springs in the front but when compaired with stock they provide alot more.. plus "tire" lift by going to 35s. 10" is the total difference from pre sas to post sas. ground to center of wheel well.
*edit* after re-measureing now that the springs have settled in. its closer to 7" front 9" rear over the LC coils and BJ spacers.
*edit* after re-measureing now that the springs have settled in. its closer to 7" front 9" rear over the LC coils and BJ spacers.
Last edited by Tofer; 10-05-2006 at 11:02 AM.
10-05-2006, 01:43 PM
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everything i read says they offer better flex, longer travel, are stronger, look and feel better, offer a softer ride. yea, i'm mostly stock at this point. i would love to do a SAS and have just learned about sky-manufacturing who offers a SAS Solid Axle Swap Conversion Kit for $1300.00. now i need to find a willing buddy who knows how to weld.
the rear leaf conversion is part of a future plans wish list and i'm doing some research in a place i've found oustanding experience.
the rear leaf conversion is part of a future plans wish list and i'm doing some research in a place i've found oustanding experience.
10-05-2006, 03:57 PM
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Ok then, I see.
I recommend you stay with your coils for now. When you become more serious about doing either an IFS lift or a SAS then start thinking about converting the rear. Note too, that this is assuming you will actually wheel the truck and I don't mean dirt roads. If you're off roading on hard enough trails where you're always lifting your tires, grinding your gas tank on rocks, etc, then you'll benefit from leaves.
Otherwise coils are cheaper and easier. I wouldn't jump blindly into a leaf spring conversion just because it's cool.
Now, if you really are going to do a SAS, then by all means go for it.
I recommend you stay with your coils for now. When you become more serious about doing either an IFS lift or a SAS then start thinking about converting the rear. Note too, that this is assuming you will actually wheel the truck and I don't mean dirt roads. If you're off roading on hard enough trails where you're always lifting your tires, grinding your gas tank on rocks, etc, then you'll benefit from leaves.
Otherwise coils are cheaper and easier. I wouldn't jump blindly into a leaf spring conversion just because it's cool.
Now, if you really are going to do a SAS, then by all means go for it.
Last edited by Robinhood150; 10-05-2006 at 04:02 PM.
10-05-2006, 06:03 PM
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I agree with robinhood, if your stock stay with the coils until you get above 3".. Also check out trail-gear.com
Tofer... gotcha.. yeah never really hear people talk that way about their lilft.. I guess I could say I have 7-9" of lift too, but I dont.. its a 4" lift. The "lift" you get from tires isnt really lift, its just more clerance. And espically in the context you used ~10" in this thred is not accutare. You have about 4" of spring lift, it took really long shackles and 3" blocks to match the front 4" lift, not 10" lift. Thats about what I have heard with the chevies, I know a guy who did the lead swap at the same time I did and he ended up with 6" blocks, to me this takes way from the 6" of extra spring...
Tofer... gotcha.. yeah never really hear people talk that way about their lilft.. I guess I could say I have 7-9" of lift too, but I dont.. its a 4" lift. The "lift" you get from tires isnt really lift, its just more clerance. And espically in the context you used ~10" in this thred is not accutare. You have about 4" of spring lift, it took really long shackles and 3" blocks to match the front 4" lift, not 10" lift. Thats about what I have heard with the chevies, I know a guy who did the lead swap at the same time I did and he ended up with 6" blocks, to me this takes way from the 6" of extra spring...
10-05-2006, 06:18 PM
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10-05-2006, 06:51 PM
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10-05-2006, 08:30 PM
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Mmmm, leafs vs coils.
I have owned both, wheeled both, modified and worked on both and have wheeled with others who have both (some with coils and some with leafs), and I can tell you that for the kind of trails that we run (big, big rocks, etc), with a "properly" setup up vehicle, there is no real comparision, the coils and links win hands down.
A couple of things.
On 4Runners (at least gen II's) the rear control arms are not too short to run 4" springs. We run that with TJ's (Jeep Wranglers) and they have much shorter CA's than the 4Runners. 4" is pushing it for short arms on the TJ's, but they work and they work pretty well. 4" of suspension lift on a 4Runner (rear) will work just fine with the stock arm length. Note now, that I said stock arm length and NOT stock arms
John, I'm in no way picking on you nor on the great looking job that you're done with your Toyota, however the rear shock placement is about the worse that it could be.
The shocks moved in from the wheels and angled even further inwards at the top provide very little stability for the vehicle and really reduce the effectiveness of the shock itself.
A shock works best as close to vertical as possible and works best with stability moved as far outboard as possible.
With the TJ's we do a "rear outboard shock mod" which involves cutting out a portion of the frame rail on the outside of the rail, just in from the rear wheels, welding in a Ford F150 shock mount and then moving the rear mounts (on the axle) up out of harms way.
When I did this mod it was one of the single, best mods that I had every done as far as ride quality and stability is concerned.
Check out my Webshots and you'll find some photos of the rear outboard shock mod (along with some other mods I did to the rear of the TJ such as a tri-linked upper arm mode and lower J-Arms, along with a front axle swap, a HPD30 in place of the LPD30, J-Arms, WJ knuckles with brakes, crossover and hi-steer mod).
One of the best "looking" Toyotas belongs (or maybe belonged as we haven't see or heard from him since his "rescue") to a fellow named Lee.
The thing was great looking and the workmanship was outstanding. Dan and I took him on a medium grade trail and I was utterly shocked at how badly that truck performed. It was, literally, the worse peforming off road vehicle that I had ever seen on any of the many, many, many runs that I've been on.
It was hugely unstable, simply flopping around everywhere. Made even relatively easy parts of the trail look hard.
A huge part of it's "problem" was the shock placement in the rear.
I don't have any (not that I have online anyway, I could probably dig up some) photos of the complete truck, but look at my Webshots site under "Charloureau Gap Rescue (Lee) 1/13/04" and you'll be able to see a few of the rear of the truck. It has/had a huge amount of flex as evidenced by the rear jacked up (not to mention that it was one of the most dangerous axle replacement jobs that I've ever seen) but it was amost completely useless flex
When I start, finally, building up mine, one of the first things that I'm going to look into is outboarding the rear shocks. Shocks with best the furthest outboard that you can get 'em (closest to the wheels) and as vertical as they can be, or even better, at 90* to the control arms (assuming a coil and link suspension). With leafs, vertical works best.
Think coilovers when thinking of shock placement and look at where most of the "big boys and girls" who run coilovers place 'em. As close the the wheels as possible
Best,
Fred
I have owned both, wheeled both, modified and worked on both and have wheeled with others who have both (some with coils and some with leafs), and I can tell you that for the kind of trails that we run (big, big rocks, etc), with a "properly" setup up vehicle, there is no real comparision, the coils and links win hands down.
A couple of things.
On 4Runners (at least gen II's) the rear control arms are not too short to run 4" springs. We run that with TJ's (Jeep Wranglers) and they have much shorter CA's than the 4Runners. 4" is pushing it for short arms on the TJ's, but they work and they work pretty well. 4" of suspension lift on a 4Runner (rear) will work just fine with the stock arm length. Note now, that I said stock arm length and NOT stock arms
John, I'm in no way picking on you nor on the great looking job that you're done with your Toyota, however the rear shock placement is about the worse that it could be.
The shocks moved in from the wheels and angled even further inwards at the top provide very little stability for the vehicle and really reduce the effectiveness of the shock itself.
A shock works best as close to vertical as possible and works best with stability moved as far outboard as possible.
With the TJ's we do a "rear outboard shock mod" which involves cutting out a portion of the frame rail on the outside of the rail, just in from the rear wheels, welding in a Ford F150 shock mount and then moving the rear mounts (on the axle) up out of harms way.
When I did this mod it was one of the single, best mods that I had every done as far as ride quality and stability is concerned.
Check out my Webshots and you'll find some photos of the rear outboard shock mod (along with some other mods I did to the rear of the TJ such as a tri-linked upper arm mode and lower J-Arms, along with a front axle swap, a HPD30 in place of the LPD30, J-Arms, WJ knuckles with brakes, crossover and hi-steer mod).
One of the best "looking" Toyotas belongs (or maybe belonged as we haven't see or heard from him since his "rescue") to a fellow named Lee.
The thing was great looking and the workmanship was outstanding. Dan and I took him on a medium grade trail and I was utterly shocked at how badly that truck performed. It was, literally, the worse peforming off road vehicle that I had ever seen on any of the many, many, many runs that I've been on.
It was hugely unstable, simply flopping around everywhere. Made even relatively easy parts of the trail look hard.
A huge part of it's "problem" was the shock placement in the rear.
I don't have any (not that I have online anyway, I could probably dig up some) photos of the complete truck, but look at my Webshots site under "Charloureau Gap Rescue (Lee) 1/13/04" and you'll be able to see a few of the rear of the truck. It has/had a huge amount of flex as evidenced by the rear jacked up (not to mention that it was one of the most dangerous axle replacement jobs that I've ever seen) but it was amost completely useless flex
When I start, finally, building up mine, one of the first things that I'm going to look into is outboarding the rear shocks. Shocks with best the furthest outboard that you can get 'em (closest to the wheels) and as vertical as they can be, or even better, at 90* to the control arms (assuming a coil and link suspension). With leafs, vertical works best.
Think coilovers when thinking of shock placement and look at where most of the "big boys and girls" who run coilovers place 'em. As close the the wheels as possible
Best,
Fred
10-06-2006, 12:39 AM
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Fred,
I think if you take a look around you will see many toyota running the /\ setup. I noticed zero stability issues after changing mine... It actually improved due to the leafs. I wheeled my rig with 4" rear coils for several months before going to leafs, it was night and day.. the coils were so unstable offcamber was scary, anyoffcamber. The was no prediciting how the rig would operate.
I agree, but your propperly setup statment is what we are saying too. A 2nd gen is not easily setup properly with more than 3" of lift. I have wheeled mine at 3" and at 4", 4" didnt work as well. I always had good shocks, and the rears of a second gen are very close to 90* to the control arm, at stock height... The suspension didnt like to cycle down far enough, and would really get cockeyed on any articulation. It was far inferior to the leafs I installed.
Coilovers also have huge amounts of travel, the whole point to a /\ is that you can get lots of wheel travel from a shorter shock. Personally I run 13" travel Ranchos, and have never even come close to fully extending or compressing them. They preform just fine in that configuration, yes you loose a little damnpening, but not enought that i noticed it in my p/u or 4runner. The /\ setup is also the only aftermarket setup that I have seen available for toyotas... and works very very well.
I think if you take a look around you will see many toyota running the /\ setup. I noticed zero stability issues after changing mine... It actually improved due to the leafs. I wheeled my rig with 4" rear coils for several months before going to leafs, it was night and day.. the coils were so unstable offcamber was scary, anyoffcamber. The was no prediciting how the rig would operate.
I agree, but your propperly setup statment is what we are saying too. A 2nd gen is not easily setup properly with more than 3" of lift. I have wheeled mine at 3" and at 4", 4" didnt work as well. I always had good shocks, and the rears of a second gen are very close to 90* to the control arm, at stock height... The suspension didnt like to cycle down far enough, and would really get cockeyed on any articulation. It was far inferior to the leafs I installed.
Coilovers also have huge amounts of travel, the whole point to a /\ is that you can get lots of wheel travel from a shorter shock. Personally I run 13" travel Ranchos, and have never even come close to fully extending or compressing them. They preform just fine in that configuration, yes you loose a little damnpening, but not enought that i noticed it in my p/u or 4runner. The /\ setup is also the only aftermarket setup that I have seen available for toyotas... and works very very well.
