Anubiscougar

Ok guys, first off, i know that alot of you dislike IFS, find it to be weak, or inferior. I don't care if you like it, or dislike it. Though if you're against it & have no input of value besides "switch to SAS, IFS sux", you mine as well read no further. I don't want your slander, and sour remarks. If you have good, REAL, honest and HELPFUL input, please, i invite you to help me out here. I know IFS isn't the strongest out there, but i do also know SA isn't gods gift to 4wheeling kind(I bent my dodge's Dana 44 , i havn't broken my 02 Silverado 2500HD 8.1BB IFS which is "weak" & has a 6"lift & 35's on it, nore mine on my runner, but in no way am i bias). With this being said, shall we?

My setup, or as it will be in a few months:
383 sbc, 450hp/450tq.
nv4500 or th400 (not sure yet)
dana 300 or np205 (depends on trans)
factory front & rear ends.
4inch suspension lift
3inch body lift(to clear the swap)
33 super swampers, wanting to go to 35-38 boggers later on(thus part of the reason for this thread)
don't think there's any other drivetrain/suspension things you need to know...

The Use:
High/Medium Speed Mud
Medium/Low Speed Water(snorkel)
High/Medium speed Sand
Slight climbing of small things here and there(nothing "crazy")
Very rare rock climbing(i want to get more into it, and take trips to GA for it, once agian nothing "crazy", just moderate)
Camping
Daily Driver(i know, gas sucks)
& hopefully LOTS of pulling OTHERS out.

The goal:
Make my front and rear ends hold this power, run the tires, and take the abuse.
Keep IFS
LT(thinking TC kit??, and is not a must, just a )
Lockers(ARB - i want the least amount of electronics on the truck as possible, thus no electric locker. I'd like an OX, but they aren't avail for us, anyone know of a retrofit??)

Concern(s):
Front & Rear axle & diff durability due to the high amount torque & large tires.
Live span, i don't want it to break after a year, i want it to break after 5...
Relatively "cheap" replacement parts.
Maintenence(sp?)... i don't want to have to keep greasing things every time i go out & play, nore do i want to keep thinks sparkling clean, clean yes, but not squeaky clean. ;-)

Other:
Will the factory stuff last atleast a few months w/o these upgrades?
How much can you build a IFS to handle? Rear end?(out of curiosity, i've heard you can build a solid axle to handle as much as a Dana 60 would, but no info on how...)
Cryo treating i'm open for, and will probably do to the ring/pinion/axles, would i need to treat the carrier? what about input yoke, universals, other?

If this is impossible... plz, tell me. But don't go yelling at me saying i'm dumb for even wanting to know or thinking of it.. I've searched the forums several times, for days... couldn't find the information i wanted. Please don't give me the same old jargon... i don't want to do SAS if i don't have to... i really don't. But i won't settle for less power, and the smallest tire i'll go is 35. I'm picky as far as that goes, everything else, who cares, i just want it to work.

Plz, share youre knowledge.

1989toy4wd

Well I can tell you right now that the stock IFS will be breaking CV's a lot with V8 power and 35s, even with a 22re and 35's the CV's wont last that long. I think that the rear axle can handle the power though! Its really not the diffs you have to worry about, I mean the weak links are the CVs!!

95RunnerSR5

the rear end is one of the strongest out there for its size, used to have an 83 with a 350 and 40" mudders and never broke anything in the rear...wheeled like a bat outta hell too

Sonofmayhem

Yup pumping out that much power and a front locker, you will be snapping cvs left and right, the tc kit is awesome and they are nice people. For your application i would toss in the engine, body lift everything except the lift, and see how many axles break, you may get lucky and not break much, and in this case i would continue to lift it and add more parts. otherwise they dont make stronger cvs for our stuff yet.

ZUK

iTrader: (1)

The th400 is much more forgiving on drivelines than sticks.

Yes, cryo treating the ring and pinions....the bearings....helps alot. I'm talking "cryo treat only" as opposed to cryo treat AND heat treatment.

Rcross

Thats what I thought too.... After wheeling my truck hard for about 4 years and driving 6 years before that with mild wheeling I still have the same CV joints in the front of the truck. I have replaced the boot on the right side once, too bad I have blown 2 R&P's. I am not running severe angles and they have held up great, I have a 3.0 and a manual in the truck.

tc

First, with that much power, you'll have gear ratio working for you as 4.30's or 4.56's will be plenty low, so you'll have good strength in the R&P. I'd go ahead and have them cryo'd - its only like $40.

A locker will HELP the preservation of the driveline in the wheeling you describe. In mud (especially rutted mud) you're trying to keep the wheelspeed up to keep the tread clear. With an open diff, though, when a wheel comes off the ground (which happens a lot) it is spinning twice as fast as the speedo would lead you to believe, then it comes slamming down. With a locker, the wheel is only moving as fast as the others, AND you can take it slower since all 4 wheels are pulling (not just 2).

Seriously, with the experience from my two trucks (an IFS '93 4Runner and a SAS '93 4Runner) stock to stock there's not as much difference in strength as everyone would lead you to believe. (Swap in 30 spline Longfields and it's a different story) I would stick with stock CV's to start - get lifetime warranty ones from Autozone, Advance, etc. Then look at upgrading them. Cryo treating a CV is going to be a PITA as you're going to have to totally disassemble it, clean every last atom of grease off, and send it to be treated.

The area you're gonna need to focus on is steeering. You need the Total Chaos idler arm at a minimum and work to beef up every component in there. Figure out a way to add a power steering cooler.

I know you don't want to hear it, but for the money you're gonna put into LT IFS, you could swap in a solid axle that could be built stronger.

Anubiscougar

hmmm, very good points, thanks so far everyone. Biggest thing i got was run the TH400... since i do agree, manuals are much more strenuous on a drivetrain. So, TH400 w/ an NP205(cheaper too).

Stick with stock axles for a bit eh? hmm.. I guess i can try that. TC, you said it'd be a PITA to disassemble the axles, lol, i work for toyota, and honestly, it's just another day in the shop ;-), we've got a parts cleaner, and i'll probably have to end up doing it anyways, thankyou for your concern though, it's duely noted. I guess the first time i break cv's, i'll do it.

Zuk, so cryo treat ring, pinion, & bearings(didn't think of that), anything else really? Why only cryo treat, and not cryo & heat treat(didn't think of that either)? Do do they usually heat treat them after they cryo them? Why not the carrier? ARB's will be strong enough w/o? I've heard horror stories about carriers breaking on trucks, not ARB's tho...

sonofmayham, i bought the truck w/ the lift. i wonder if i can take it off, are they made to be "unboltable"? I havn't given it much thought, or even a 2nd look at the lifted areas.

TC, what are the longfields anyways, just the inner shafts(stronger & more splines)? They don't have bigger, beefier cv's yet? How would that work w/ the factory carrier?

I'm not really worried about gear ratios just yet.. i'm sure like you said TC i'll be ok w/ 4.30's or 4.56's.. i was thinking 4.11's or 4.56.

Steering components? mm, yes, thankyou for bringing up yet another thing i had forgotten about. A cooler IS something i'll be running, i also plan on eventually getting a hydraulic milemarker,(not sure which size tho, 9k, or 10.5k, which would yall get). Electric winches are out of the question, due to my need for water, sry(i swear i want my truck to be a swamp buggie).

So what you're saying is that in the LONG RUN, SA would probably be cheaper. That the LT kit from TC will give me no benifit of durability(by switching to T100 axles), and that.. it kinda depends on how lucky i am??

No one really said much about 35's vs 38's..

SO...
Things i need to do:
Stock axles for now, cryo treat if needed.
Ring/pinion/bearings cryo'd
ARB locker or stock locker
Rear is ok to play (cool, less money)
Run the TH400 instead of the NV4500 for less strain on everything.
Be smart in my playing, this is probably one of the biggest factors, isn't it, .

Thanks again guys, and keep the info comming. I would really like to hear about the rear end too, and how 38's will fair w/ the front, i know it's a known "no-no" but can it be done?... done being 13.5inches(or bigger) wide that is...

-Bryan C.

sh0kk86

http://www.chaosfab.com/what.html
http://www.jdfabrication.com/kits/toyota_truck4x4.asp
http://www.downeyoff-road.com/Suspen...ents/index.htm

just some longtravel kits by tc,jd and downey for some research you might want to look through.

Wish i knew more about effectively using 38's and ifs for offroading, but i havent seen it. Maybe something like the http://www.chaosfab.com/gen3caddy.html would be a startingg point, since it has 35s as the main tire size.

Stomis

Might I ask why your building a torque monster motor and want to keep your IFS? It sounds like your going all out with the driveline why not the suspension too? As far as the rear goes throw some fresh yukons in the back and I doubt you'll break it. Just becareful yanking people out I have 2 friends that have taken teeth off doing that.

Yota82

The TC Gen III kit is not designed to retain 4WD like the other TC kits. It comes with a lift spindle that the lower a arm blocks where the axle goes through. 2WD only.

fthertime666

yota82, am I right in thinking the TC heim steering cannot be used with the stock a-arms?

sh0kk86

I know yota82, just a link for him to get some ideas on different setups for LT.

tc

Longfields are replacement axles for Solid Axle trucks (not IFS). They are heat treated, cryo'd, cromoly and bigger (30 spline vs 27). Good for as big as you want to go on a Toy axle. (similar to D60 strength!)
www.longfieldsuperaxles.com

For stronger CV's, these guys might be able to help you:
http://www.cvunlimited.com/

The T100 axles aren't significantly stronger than the regular ones - just longer (they may have a true CV inner instead of tripod - not sure)

Anubiscougar

holly crappp... i think i just wet myself..

Why am i building a torque monster/drivetrain w/o the front & rear ends the same? Simple. dana 60's are out of my budget, would take me much longer to do that than to just keep what i have. Dana 44's may or may not hold up(it's still questionable to me). Unimog & rockwell, well.. i won't say anything there, we all know how that goes $$$ .

The reseaon i want so much torque is simple, i want it, i know it's not practical, but i don't care, i just want it. It'll bite me in the ass & i know it, but i can some day say i did it & i had it. Not to mention, i've been in more than enough situations to need more power on & off road. The 8.1BB i've got in my 2500HD puts out about 400 ft lbs i believe, or somewhere around there, 4.56 gears, and 35's... it moves good, but just not quite as much as i'd like my play toy to move... i know torque is where it's at(also weight, and i'm already one up on that). Not to mention, i've always wanted to build a beast of a motor. Mine as well stick it in something fun & that needs a new heart anyways. I toyed with the idea of a 355, with about 350 horse/torque for months and months... it's adiquate, and i'd never need more. But it's not a matter of need, it's a matter of want. Afterall, none of us here NEED mudding/crawling trucks.. we don't NEED to go offroad.. we simply.. want to... it's in our blood & we can't deny it. It's the "applejacks theory", you don't know why you like applejacks, you just do.(great comercials btw)

I think what i'll do is ride the IFS... Once it breaks, if it's something simple(CV), cryo it & replace it... if it breaks again.. then i'll toy with SAS the thing. I won't yet do a LT kit, i don't think it's a necessity, i was toying with the idea because i thought maybe the T100 axles were stronger, i'm now assuming/guessing not? Plus, it's more money i'd have to spend that i don't want to if i don't have to. Nore will i get a carrier/diff just yet either. Maybe for the rear, but not the front yet. I'll put the IFS through it's stock paces.. see what breaks.. if it ends up breaking twice.. then i know what i have to do(and i don't want to).

See, at first when i got my truck, i was happy to think, cool i can do an SAS on this... then i rode my truck.. i liked it more than i did my dodge, not that my dodge was shabby, it took me many places i didn't think it ever would, and faired better than many other trucks i had seen. ppl considered me to be pretty crazy & i'd go in almost any pit someone challenged me to. I rarely got stuck then.. i got stuck when i was solo (always a bad move, cost me a tranny & a front end on the dodge & a motor on my yota ).

Thankyou All for your input. It's pretty much the exact info i've been searching & searching for on this forum. I'm glad to see there are people out there that are willing to help in what some would feel is a "fruitless" & "pointless" endeavour.

As far as the tires go, i think i'll hold off till i get the whole drivetrain issue worked out.. then go from there... if this means SAS, then it does, if not then cool.

Please, if you have anymore input, thoughts or comments, continue. I've got what i need out of this post(or so i feel at this point), but other's still may not.

Something such as strenght of the T100 axles, vs stockers, vs porsche(modified), vs downey would be good to know though. Or If OX lockers can be retro fit to our trucks(would love that ).

Thanks guys for all your help. It's much appreciated. ...now if work would stop being so slow so i can actually make summore money to get this ball rolling faster. I hate slow season & crappy workers.

tc

I keep forgetting ...

the toyota elocker can be cable actuated instead of electrically. Experience of people who have done it seems to be mixed at best. Available from www.downeyoff-road.com

Sonofmayhem

THe kits can be taken out...I think. but its fine to just keep it on as long as you arent dumping money into it. I'd drop in the engine and go nuts, if something like the old ass cv breaks, get a lifetime warranty one from vatozone and put them in, if you break them just as fast, id say its a sign....

Come to the dark side

ZUK

iTrader: (1)

Any metal component will benefit from cryo. And the case and carrier are on the list. The ARB would benefit also. The CV half shafts would benefit also....they don't have to be dis-assembled....just cryo them with the rubber boots and grease still in them.
A cryo-only process does not change the hardness of the metal. It greatly improves surface durability and fatigue resistance. For a rig that will see driving on the roads/hi-way, and trails, you don't want a softer ring and pinion....or softer bearings... as the heat treatment part does.
I'm referring to Bobby Long that offers both processes for the rockcrawlin crowd that have trailor queens. Bobby offers the cryo-only part to those that request it and I think his rates are about the cheapest. You are welcome to send the gear stuff to me for the strongest possible gear install

MudHippy

I run 35's on IFS. Lots o' trouble for me. I can hack it though, so you can too. I'll let you know what have been the soft spots on my rig.

Steering: hard on ps belts, just braced my idler arm (would bend if I looked at it funny before), center link takes a little effort, but bendy.

7.5" axle: Chewed up 2 sets of 4:10 r&p's, plus a set of side gears (cryo them too, by the way), cracked a piece of one cv shaft (took some concerted effort)

I would NOT recommend 38's. It's gonna be trouble enough with the 35's bro, trust me on this. I've got no where near the kind of stump pullin' torque like your intending on.

I'll quote Les Claypool here, "To defy the laws of tradition, is a crusade only of the brave". Good luck.

Edit: Forgot to mention the clutch, how I'll never know. Because it drives me crazy with all the slipping, of course it's only stock.

mastacox

With the kind of power you're talking about pushing and the size tires you want, I would say you REALLY need to think about going to 1-ton axles...