been thinkin of a better cold air intake setup...
08-30-2013, 02:35 PM
#101
Registered User
I was thinking that your airbox temp was w/o deflector for some reason.
I would like to see you re-run this test after sealing up the top of the air deflector. I think that could make a big difference.
Another change to try would be mounting your temp probe on top of intake tube, in airstream above that tube (or even, if you're comfortable, on top of the filter between filter and AFM). Both I think might change your data. To which degree each affects, we'd have to see results.
Again, I absolutely think without adding intake holes, the stock headlight intake is insufficient for WOT/a point of restriction. If that restricts, then some air will be drawn from engine bay, especially if deflector isn't full air sealed.
I would like to see you re-run this test after sealing up the top of the air deflector. I think that could make a big difference.
Another change to try would be mounting your temp probe on top of intake tube, in airstream above that tube (or even, if you're comfortable, on top of the filter between filter and AFM). Both I think might change your data. To which degree each affects, we'd have to see results.
Again, I absolutely think without adding intake holes, the stock headlight intake is insufficient for WOT/a point of restriction. If that restricts, then some air will be drawn from engine bay, especially if deflector isn't full air sealed.
08-30-2013, 03:37 PM
#102
Registered User
Measuring the System
I see all this attention being put towards bringing in cold air. But, nobody has seemed to realize the fact that the air travels down the system and is warmed by the intake anyways. Go put your hand on top of the intake manifold of a 22RE. It is hot, due to the heat sink created by the engine. What's the point of bringing in cold air if is just gets heated later on in the system?
To make this a viable option, the air needs to be the same temperature at the point of combustion as it was when it first entered the system.
All these graphs and theories are pointless if the entire system is not looked at.
To make this a viable option, the air needs to be the same temperature at the point of combustion as it was when it first entered the system.
All these graphs and theories are pointless if the entire system is not looked at.
I thought the point was obtaining or keeping the air as cool as possible, for as long as possible. As our readership has commented, "...a cooler air stream will contain a higher O2 content, which will be a benefit..." Even if that benefit is small, it is not a detriment.
If the cross-over pipe or exhaust components are the proximate cause of the higher temps of the air stream in the intake, then we should take a hard look at that. E.g. we eliminate the heating source as a cause then maybe it won't matter what how our intake is routed. Has someone investigated this relationship and quantified it?
No, I didn't assemble a Fishbone (Ishikawa) diagram to identify ALL possible causes because I'm not paid to think about this all day. This is a fun project for me. Consulting the forum in the first place was to help me learn more. (Which it has, you guys are great.)
Consider the following: What if the cross-over/exhaust system IS the proximate cause of the higher intake temps? Would isolating or removing that heat exchange affect our intake temps? I believe it would because at first glance at least this condition would be supported by the data. Now, given this assertion, it now has to be proven. Who's up to it?
Last edited by skipper0802; 08-30-2013 at 03:39 PM.
08-30-2013, 05:39 PM
#103
Registered User
The issue w/ the crossover is than exhaust oftens has headers radiating temperatures in excess of 750*F, with exhaust gasses being in the 800*F to 1000*F range.
The crossover keeps those hot gasses in the engine bay longer and also dramatically increases the surface area of exhaust pipes in the engine bay to radiate that heat.
Yes, the intake manifold is hot, but it'd be even hotter w/o drawing in cold air/air not from engine bay.
skipper -- I think we're looking at is what system brings in the greatest amount of cold air in the least restrictive fashion. The loss of HP and torque from drawing in hot air has been well document. The loss of HP and torque from restrictive intakes has also been documented. So how do we get the best of both? That's what we're looking to answer, and your project is giving good, hard data.
Also, cooler engines are also proven to generate more hp. And the crossover on this engine has been proven to be a source of premature wear and failure of headgaskets/exhaust valves. That's something we can also control. And it also has potential for big reductions in intake temps, or at least I think.
Yes, every engine will use any metal connected to it as a heatsink. However the block, and intake should stay roughly within the thermostat/coolant controlled temps... The exhaust radiates heat and the exhaust, unlike the engine, is not liquid cooled. (One thing to note is that long tube headers do have less mass so have a little less ability to radiate heat than the cast iron headers from a mass perspective, but long tube also have greater area so are only a definitely net positive on the heat side for the long tubes if they're ceramic coated...).
That said, the engine has to have an intake that also has to be metal, so we can't control that. We could redesign the intake to minimize area available for heat transfer, but that's excessive, especially when there are malpractices like the K&N cones that are measurably reducing performance, and other stuff, like exhaust piping, noted above that can help to remedy the issue.
Snobbs - the 3vze is not the 22re. The 3vze is a V6 engine forced to fit into a 4cylinder engine's pants. The engine bay is too small, the exhaust setup is nearly identical (excepting the crossover and two headers), the afm is too small, etc. All of these things reduce performance of an engine that based upon it's displacement and same profile as nearly identical short blocks used in the Supras, if properly configured could nearly push another 100 hp out of it (Yes, this involves pretty extensive top end work, including switching from SOHC to DOHC, but it could be done based upon the displacement). The fact that it is constrained by both emissions setup and a restricted head and intake setup cannot be overlooked. Unlike the 22re the V6 puts out more fuel, more heat, has two exhaust manifolds and also has an amount of exhuast piping equivalent to what your 22re has all the way from the manifold to the cat contained w/in the engine bay. Definitely not ideal. That's what we're working on here. Our engine bays are hotter from the start and makes the problems generated from intake air malpractice even more noticeable than on more mild platforms like your 22re... Point being, these pickups were built to run 4 cylinder 22re's and 4 cylinder diesels. The V6's were largely a marketing ploy to increase market share in North America. The pigeonholing of this engine onto a 4cylinder platform created a lot of less than ideal setups. Fortunately, Toyota learned a lot and the next gen 3.4 5vzfe corrects most, if not all, of the 3vze's issues and is a very straight forward swap for the 3.0s.
The crossover keeps those hot gasses in the engine bay longer and also dramatically increases the surface area of exhaust pipes in the engine bay to radiate that heat.
Yes, the intake manifold is hot, but it'd be even hotter w/o drawing in cold air/air not from engine bay.
skipper -- I think we're looking at is what system brings in the greatest amount of cold air in the least restrictive fashion. The loss of HP and torque from drawing in hot air has been well document. The loss of HP and torque from restrictive intakes has also been documented. So how do we get the best of both? That's what we're looking to answer, and your project is giving good, hard data.
Also, cooler engines are also proven to generate more hp. And the crossover on this engine has been proven to be a source of premature wear and failure of headgaskets/exhaust valves. That's something we can also control. And it also has potential for big reductions in intake temps, or at least I think.
Yes, every engine will use any metal connected to it as a heatsink. However the block, and intake should stay roughly within the thermostat/coolant controlled temps... The exhaust radiates heat and the exhaust, unlike the engine, is not liquid cooled. (One thing to note is that long tube headers do have less mass so have a little less ability to radiate heat than the cast iron headers from a mass perspective, but long tube also have greater area so are only a definitely net positive on the heat side for the long tubes if they're ceramic coated...).
That said, the engine has to have an intake that also has to be metal, so we can't control that. We could redesign the intake to minimize area available for heat transfer, but that's excessive, especially when there are malpractices like the K&N cones that are measurably reducing performance, and other stuff, like exhaust piping, noted above that can help to remedy the issue.
Snobbs - the 3vze is not the 22re. The 3vze is a V6 engine forced to fit into a 4cylinder engine's pants. The engine bay is too small, the exhaust setup is nearly identical (excepting the crossover and two headers), the afm is too small, etc. All of these things reduce performance of an engine that based upon it's displacement and same profile as nearly identical short blocks used in the Supras, if properly configured could nearly push another 100 hp out of it (Yes, this involves pretty extensive top end work, including switching from SOHC to DOHC, but it could be done based upon the displacement). The fact that it is constrained by both emissions setup and a restricted head and intake setup cannot be overlooked. Unlike the 22re the V6 puts out more fuel, more heat, has two exhaust manifolds and also has an amount of exhuast piping equivalent to what your 22re has all the way from the manifold to the cat contained w/in the engine bay. Definitely not ideal. That's what we're working on here. Our engine bays are hotter from the start and makes the problems generated from intake air malpractice even more noticeable than on more mild platforms like your 22re... Point being, these pickups were built to run 4 cylinder 22re's and 4 cylinder diesels. The V6's were largely a marketing ploy to increase market share in North America. The pigeonholing of this engine onto a 4cylinder platform created a lot of less than ideal setups. Fortunately, Toyota learned a lot and the next gen 3.4 5vzfe corrects most, if not all, of the 3vze's issues and is a very straight forward swap for the 3.0s.
Last edited by RSR; 08-30-2013 at 06:55 PM.
08-30-2013, 06:33 PM
#104
Registered User
lol..prove it. You went up two inches on tire size with same gears and claim your mpg is exactly the same because of a plastic box and filter.
Last edited by JohnnyCanuck; 08-30-2013 at 06:37 PM.
08-30-2013, 07:54 PM
#105
Registered User
Your failing to look at the entire intake system as a whole, there is no point in doing one thing if all the other choke points are not addressed. If you bring in more air by upgrading the VAFM, then your throttle body is too small and needs to bore out at the neck, or buy one already done through LCE. Then with more air going into the intake, your valves are to small, so you now need oversized valves to get the air into the combustion chamber. Also your valve springs will need to be stiffer since the valves are now bigger. The head will need to be port and polished to lesson the restrictions to make it flow better. Now you have more exhaust then you normally would have due to more air and you need to get that out some how, so now you need headers and an larger exhaust. The entire thing is a system designed to work in concert.
I won't even expand on the "air" temperature entering the system because it simply splitting hairs. It has a very negligible effect, if any. The intake will warm the air to what ever it is anyways. If you want to do a mod that really has a benefit...regear.
I won't even expand on the "air" temperature entering the system because it simply splitting hairs. It has a very negligible effect, if any. The intake will warm the air to what ever it is anyways. If you want to do a mod that really has a benefit...regear.
08-31-2013, 08:18 PM
#106
Registered User
snobdds,
There's a whole host of research that contradicts your assertions. In particular outside air temperature does matter, despite the fact that the intake does warm the air beyond air intake. (Further, with the 22re you run -- and the fact that these trucks were designed around 4cylinder engines that were actually several generations in development/refinement, you'll actually see much less gains from modding your engine that we can find on ours. The question for us is to what degree and cost makes sense to pursue these gains.)
Using the formula here in regards to intake air temp, the 3vze 150 hp has an effective 150 hp at the 59*F standard, 143 hp at 109*F (~5% reduction in power), 137 hp at 159*F (~9% reduction in power), and 132 hp at 209*F (~12% reduction in power).
This is a really great intro on air and power across all dimensions: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...g/viewall.html
In regards to the system being a complete whole, you're correct; however some items are bigger restrictions and/or have outsized effects on intake air temperature than others. If you kill those dogs, the overall system benefits, despite not redesigning the system in entirety.
Take the 3vze ISR mod, from both a flow and temp perspective it has benefits. And the temp absorbtion of which you speak affects the engine more at low speeds than high speeds. This too is a good discussion (I found highlighting all makes it much more reasonable, ctrl+a works too), in particular the "The Effect of Heat Absorption on Intake Air Temperature" section: http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/sho...ts-and-Studies
Overall, I think you're way oversimplifying and overgeneralizing how everything works in concert. And also making assumptions from your experience with the 22re that do not fully apply to the 3vze...
There's a whole host of research that contradicts your assertions. In particular outside air temperature does matter, despite the fact that the intake does warm the air beyond air intake. (Further, with the 22re you run -- and the fact that these trucks were designed around 4cylinder engines that were actually several generations in development/refinement, you'll actually see much less gains from modding your engine that we can find on ours. The question for us is to what degree and cost makes sense to pursue these gains.)
Using the formula here in regards to intake air temp, the 3vze 150 hp has an effective 150 hp at the 59*F standard, 143 hp at 109*F (~5% reduction in power), 137 hp at 159*F (~9% reduction in power), and 132 hp at 209*F (~12% reduction in power).
This is a really great intro on air and power across all dimensions: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...g/viewall.html
In regards to the system being a complete whole, you're correct; however some items are bigger restrictions and/or have outsized effects on intake air temperature than others. If you kill those dogs, the overall system benefits, despite not redesigning the system in entirety.
Take the 3vze ISR mod, from both a flow and temp perspective it has benefits. And the temp absorbtion of which you speak affects the engine more at low speeds than high speeds. This too is a good discussion (I found highlighting all makes it much more reasonable, ctrl+a works too), in particular the "The Effect of Heat Absorption on Intake Air Temperature" section: http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/sho...ts-and-Studies
Overall, I think you're way oversimplifying and overgeneralizing how everything works in concert. And also making assumptions from your experience with the 22re that do not fully apply to the 3vze...
Last edited by RSR; 08-31-2013 at 08:27 PM.
08-31-2013, 09:35 PM
#107
Registered User
Last edited by RSR; 08-31-2013 at 09:38 PM.
08-31-2013, 10:04 PM
#108
Registered User
Interesting!
The other thing I noticed is the cleanliness of the engine bay...NICE!
08-31-2013, 10:32 PM
#109
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Come to Kerrville tx I'll show you person also since I've done this and since I am getting allot cooler air and I always put premium I was able to advance my timing a bit more and thus it ran better and better every since then. Before it would ping after so long lol and one other thing when I bought the truck someone geared it for the 39.5 irok super swampers so yea I never needed to reheat anyways but Thx for your input..also uploaded are two pics of today's drive on straight run...it was 80mph speed limit and also my tach is 200 rpms higher due to me not adjusting the resistance for the sr5 cluster swap... RSR is the bomb by the way.I plan on installing a port close to s&b to further make it cool air. Ear has had same thought and ideas on everything I could think. Now snobbds this statement is for you. CAI may be waste of money in your opinion but understand this: any cooler air then the air that isn't restricted or gathered from the engine bay is way better then restrictions in piping or a filter that's open under the hood. Yes the s&b does get some hot air from engine and yes it's not completely sealed(yet) but I promise you that because of the cooler air especially with the 3vz is better so your statement about CAI being a marketing ply to scan money is incorrect. Now getting a properly made one is key and as long as your making advancements towards reaching that while stepping in the right direction CAI aren't a waste. Any cooler air is good regardless if heated to a curtain degree.
Last edited by Scrussanation; 08-31-2013 at 11:54 PM.
09-01-2013, 09:19 PM
#110
Registered User
WOT - Points of Intake Restriction
OK Guys,
Finally got around to working this part of the project, namely, "How much restriction in the OEM intake system (w/K&N drop-in)?" (I replaced the surgical tubing I had used before with 1/8" vacuum tubing-- more rigid) I suspected that the lighter-walled surgical tubing was partially collapsing, giving me an inaccurate reading.)
Data collection at TB intake (point #1):
The results are in for the first stage of this test. a 10 test sample group was performed, which should cover ~61% of the true population value at a 95% confidence level. Each test consisted of full throttle 2nd gear until the tachometer would no longer climb. At this point, pressure drop in units of inches of water column (inWC), rpm, and speed (mph) were recorded. One exception was done in 1st gear.
Mean of total intake system pressure drop: 12.395 inWC (0.45 PSI differential pressure)
This is the total pressure drop (or restriction) in the OEM intake system (w/K&N). Components of the intake system will all contribute their share of effect to the total. As restriction decreases, so will the total measure. A perfect, non-boosted, non-rammed intake will have no restriction at a pressure of 14.7 PSI...the same as our atmosphere.
Ban negative boost AKA pressure drop !
Proposed test locations:
Test point #1 data:
Data collection between VAFM and filter (point #2): TBA
Measurement at this location tells us the restriction value from the engine-side of the filter all the way to the air pickup point.
[Edit 9/2/2013 added pic of 3/8" hose barb]
Data collection at atmosphere-side of filter (point #3): TBA
Measurement at this location tells us the restriction value from the atmosphere side of the airbox to the air pickup point
Stay tuned for data and continued findings.
Finally got around to working this part of the project, namely, "How much restriction in the OEM intake system (w/K&N drop-in)?" (I replaced the surgical tubing I had used before with 1/8" vacuum tubing-- more rigid) I suspected that the lighter-walled surgical tubing was partially collapsing, giving me an inaccurate reading.)
Data collection at TB intake (point #1):
The results are in for the first stage of this test. a 10 test sample group was performed, which should cover ~61% of the true population value at a 95% confidence level. Each test consisted of full throttle 2nd gear until the tachometer would no longer climb. At this point, pressure drop in units of inches of water column (inWC), rpm, and speed (mph) were recorded. One exception was done in 1st gear.
Mean of total intake system pressure drop: 12.395 inWC (0.45 PSI differential pressure)
This is the total pressure drop (or restriction) in the OEM intake system (w/K&N). Components of the intake system will all contribute their share of effect to the total. As restriction decreases, so will the total measure. A perfect, non-boosted, non-rammed intake will have no restriction at a pressure of 14.7 PSI...the same as our atmosphere.
Ban negative boost AKA pressure drop !
Proposed test locations:
Test point #1 data:
Data collection between VAFM and filter (point #2): TBA
Measurement at this location tells us the restriction value from the engine-side of the filter all the way to the air pickup point.
[Edit 9/2/2013 added pic of 3/8" hose barb]
Data collection at atmosphere-side of filter (point #3): TBA
Measurement at this location tells us the restriction value from the atmosphere side of the airbox to the air pickup point
Stay tuned for data and continued findings.
Last edited by skipper0802; 09-16-2013 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Added pic of collection point #2
09-03-2013, 08:31 PM
#111
Registered User
I see all this attention being put towards bringing in cold air. But, nobody has seemed to realize the fact that the air travels down the system and is warmed by the intake anyways. Go put your hand on top of the intake manifold of a 22RE. It is hot, due to the heat sink created by the engine. What's the point of bringing in cold air if is just gets heated later on in the system?
To make this a viable option, the air needs to be the same temperature at the point of combustion as it was when it first entered the system.
To make this a viable option, the air needs to be the same temperature at the point of combustion as it was when it first entered the system.
But if no one wants to be the trailblazer and do this on a 3.0L, then lowering intake air temperature will most definitely help. I can attest to the opposite... when my engine bay gets stinkin hot it really does sap power, especially at highway speeds.
At a best case scenario, all these mods and tweaks will do is prevent the engine from drawing hot air from the engine bay and eliminate the restriction at WOT. Will it be enough to notice a difference? Maybe but no guarantees. Perhaps we are all just addicted to the thought of increasing performance just a little bit more...
09-03-2013, 09:22 PM
#112
Registered User
Thinking further through wrenchmonster's intake mod shared above:
I was out looking at my truck this evening, and this is what I came to:
1) Keeping the factory intake setup, with add'l air holes I drilled out (definitely helped it breathe better btw)
2) ISR delete and remove lower chamber.
3) I can now run a direct line between the lower oval hole and the lower passenger side of the box. Between the factory intake and this add'l breathing hole (thinking it's roughly equivalent a 1.75" pipe/hose).
The only downside as I see it is that it drops my intake height a couple inches... At first thought, I might find one of the mid 90s 4 cylinder accord plastic intake tubes w/ lower reservoirs for just in case... Like this:
Not at the top of my to dos, but definitely something I'll post when I get around to it. Def before end of year.
I was out looking at my truck this evening, and this is what I came to:
1) Keeping the factory intake setup, with add'l air holes I drilled out (definitely helped it breathe better btw)
2) ISR delete and remove lower chamber.
3) I can now run a direct line between the lower oval hole and the lower passenger side of the box. Between the factory intake and this add'l breathing hole (thinking it's roughly equivalent a 1.75" pipe/hose).
The only downside as I see it is that it drops my intake height a couple inches... At first thought, I might find one of the mid 90s 4 cylinder accord plastic intake tubes w/ lower reservoirs for just in case... Like this:
Not at the top of my to dos, but definitely something I'll post when I get around to it. Def before end of year.
09-04-2013, 06:35 PM
#113
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im doing the RSR tip drill mod later on... called it tip drill cuz song just popped in head randomly... stupid song tho anyways was waiting for new houseings for headlights as well as white led headlights vs the blue led headlights i have now.. check my album if curious, but not shying too far away from subject I hope to find a way to further mod my intake holes when I take grill cover off, etc
09-04-2013, 08:51 PM
#114
Registered User
What's It For?
Anyone know the purpose/reason for the triangle-shaped box between the TB and the VAFM? It it some sort of resonator/silencer? You can see it in my pic above.
I'm thinking about adding another measurement point just to know what this box does to the flow.
I'm thinking about adding another measurement point just to know what this box does to the flow.
idk gots me lol to underpower the truck maybe?
09-05-2013, 06:59 AM
#116
so have we come to the conclusion that a short ram/cone filter air intake is not practical for us? I bought one off ebay and have not yet installed it. I was considering fabbing a very small (~6" x 1/2") rectangular hole in the front driver side corner of my hood, and fiberglassing a small scoop above it to get some real cold air to it and not have to bother with any of these other mods. Feedback on this would be appreciated of course.
09-05-2013, 11:02 AM
#118
Registered User
Practical Application
so have we come to the conclusion that a short ram/cone filter air intake is not practical for us? I bought one off ebay and have not yet installed it. I was considering fabbing a very small (~6" x 1/2") rectangular hole in the front driver side corner of my hood, and fiberglassing a small scoop above it to get some real cold air to it and not have to bother with any of these other mods. Feedback on this would be appreciated of course.
Have fun!
09-05-2013, 11:09 AM
#119
I think it's practical, but there are considerations involved in using it. Many of those concerns are iterated in this thread. All of us have factors that are important, and those factors may not be important to another. "To Each His Own." I submit that most of us enjoy the discovery, learning, and pride in accomplishing what each of us set out to do...and comment accordingly.
Have fun!
Have fun!
09-05-2013, 03:11 PM
#120
Contributing Member
so have we come to the conclusion that a short ram/cone filter air intake is not practical for us? I bought one off ebay and have not yet installed it. I was considering fabbing a very small (~6" x 1/2") rectangular hole in the front driver side corner of my hood, and fiberglassing a small scoop above it to get some real cold air to it and not have to bother with any of these other mods. Feedback on this would be appreciated of course.
I've looked at and considered building a scoop. I think the best spot would be over the left side valve cover and as close to the throttle body as you can get. You may have to do a remote tank on the brake master cylinder too. There is space for it, but it's going to be tight. I'm not sure where your fabrication skills are, but imho this is not a good project for someone whose skills are not in the 8,9,10 range of ability.
