Another 22RE head gasket thread - with pics - help needed
02-25-2007, 10:28 AM
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Another 22RE head gasket thread - with pics - help needed
Hi all (some of this is from my earlier post),
I have a 1989 4runner with the 22RE, 160k miles. I noticed that the heater wasn't working great and even after an oil change, there was some chocolate latte under the oil cap and coolant could be noticed on the dipstick as well.
I'm in the middle of swapping the head gasket and I'm not sure that it was the culprit. Basically, there was some residue build-up beside one of head bolt holes on the block and the bolt hole was filled with a fine powdery residue. What the heck does that mean?
Here are some pics.
I have a 1989 4runner with the 22RE, 160k miles. I noticed that the heater wasn't working great and even after an oil change, there was some chocolate latte under the oil cap and coolant could be noticed on the dipstick as well.
I'm in the middle of swapping the head gasket and I'm not sure that it was the culprit. Basically, there was some residue build-up beside one of head bolt holes on the block and the bolt hole was filled with a fine powdery residue. What the heck does that mean?
Here are some pics.
02-25-2007, 10:30 AM
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More history...
The previous owner had replaced the timing chain and used metal guides but didn't replace the timing cover. He said it was grooved by the old timing chain, but not bad enough to leak in his opinion. The truck was running fine and the engine sounded fine. The only symptom was not much heat and the engine was beginning to overheat a little (3/4 but not near red).
I replaced the thermostat and put in new coolant and oil change and it still has no heat and there appears to be coolant in the oil. To clarify, I wasn't driving around, I just ran the engine for a little bit in my garage.
I did a compression test and the cylinder 4 was low. It ran about 125 PSI. I put a little bit of oil in the plug hole and it showed normal pressure (184 PSI).
I was thinking this was the head gasket, but could it just be the timing cover leaking?
I am tearing it down and replacing the head gasket and possibly the timing cover. Now I'm wondering what to do about the low compression in cylinder 4. I'm also wondering if I should rebuild the engine. I was looking at the engnbldr heads and they look like a nice option, but is it really necessary?
Also, what about the bottom end? Should I be thinking about rebuilding the bottom end as well? I'd like to get some more miles out of this rig.
I've since removed the head and I'm not sure if the head gasket was the problem.
Can anyone tell from the pics if the head gasket was the problem?
The previous owner had replaced the timing chain and used metal guides but didn't replace the timing cover. He said it was grooved by the old timing chain, but not bad enough to leak in his opinion. The truck was running fine and the engine sounded fine. The only symptom was not much heat and the engine was beginning to overheat a little (3/4 but not near red).
I replaced the thermostat and put in new coolant and oil change and it still has no heat and there appears to be coolant in the oil. To clarify, I wasn't driving around, I just ran the engine for a little bit in my garage.
I did a compression test and the cylinder 4 was low. It ran about 125 PSI. I put a little bit of oil in the plug hole and it showed normal pressure (184 PSI).
I was thinking this was the head gasket, but could it just be the timing cover leaking?
I am tearing it down and replacing the head gasket and possibly the timing cover. Now I'm wondering what to do about the low compression in cylinder 4. I'm also wondering if I should rebuild the engine. I was looking at the engnbldr heads and they look like a nice option, but is it really necessary?
Also, what about the bottom end? Should I be thinking about rebuilding the bottom end as well? I'd like to get some more miles out of this rig.
I've since removed the head and I'm not sure if the head gasket was the problem.
Can anyone tell from the pics if the head gasket was the problem?
02-25-2007, 10:33 AM
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Also, I tried to get the crank pulley nut off, put the rig in 5th, 4Lo and used a breaker bar, but the crank just turns a bit. I'm going to borrow an impact gun and try again, but does anyone have any tricks? It's too late to try the starter method as the head/intake/exhaust is all disconnected.
02-25-2007, 10:46 AM
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Also, I tried to get the crank pulley nut off, put the rig in 5th, 4Lo and used a breaker bar, but the crank just turns a bit. I'm going to borrow an impact gun and try again, but does anyone have any tricks? It's too late to try the starter method as the head/intake/exhaust is all disconnected.
The BABB (Big Ass Breaker Bar)
A massive impact wrench may work also.
02-25-2007, 11:04 AM
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Hmmm...that corrosion looks like the crap around a battery terminal. How old is the radiator? Are all the battery grounds in good shape?
Fram is junk, I know. But, where are you going with that statement?
Fram is junk, I know. But, where are you going with that statement?
Last edited by thook; 02-25-2007 at 11:06 AM.
02-25-2007, 11:11 AM
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Funny you should ask about the radiator. Here's a pic. It was pretty terrible. I was thinking about having it repaired, but I might just get a new one.
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02-25-2007, 12:39 PM
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This is were I got my rad in Ottawa seemed to be the cheapest
http://www.ypca.com/capdomrad/ and nice service. I checked all the part's and OEM, all were 300+ and these guy's were the cheapest that I could find. I think I got mine for $240taxes in, but I'm going on memory.
I'm interested in knowing what it costs you to ship stuff from the states.. So I just subscribed..
FYI I'm in the west end. Great to see another sens fan on the forum..
http://www.ypca.com/capdomrad/ and nice service. I checked all the part's and OEM, all were 300+ and these guy's were the cheapest that I could find. I think I got mine for $240taxes in, but I'm going on memory.
I'm interested in knowing what it costs you to ship stuff from the states.. So I just subscribed..
FYI I'm in the west end. Great to see another sens fan on the forum..
02-25-2007, 12:59 PM
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Okay, so I'm putting my feet in unknown territory....
Have you ever heard of electrolysis? Read the section "basic maintenance".
http://www.drivewerks.com/Newsletter/vol-7.htm
S'what it sounds like to me.
Have you ever heard of electrolysis? Read the section "basic maintenance".
http://www.drivewerks.com/Newsletter/vol-7.htm
S'what it sounds like to me.
02-25-2007, 02:15 PM
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Interesting. I haven't seen anything like that on the head, but the timing cover looked suspicious. I'm going to give everything the once-over and post up some pics of anything odd looking.
Also, the previous owner had replaced the timing chain. When I removed the head gasket, it seemed like it was pinched between the block and the timing cover. I thought that was pretty odd. I'm wondering if that's how the coolant was getting into the oil.
Last time I picked up a radiator (3 years ago for my old 4runner), I paid $150 at Gary's radiator. This time, the same place wants $275. I might just get one off ebay. They have full metal ones for $100 USD.
Oh yeah...SENS RULE!
Also, the previous owner had replaced the timing chain. When I removed the head gasket, it seemed like it was pinched between the block and the timing cover. I thought that was pretty odd. I'm wondering if that's how the coolant was getting into the oil.
Last time I picked up a radiator (3 years ago for my old 4runner), I paid $150 at Gary's radiator. This time, the same place wants $275. I might just get one off ebay. They have full metal ones for $100 USD.
Oh yeah...SENS RULE!
02-25-2007, 04:17 PM
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okay, so I checked out the head and can see no areas where it is pitted or deteriorated. BUT, the timing cover looks like that.
The other article suggested that an improperly grounded starter can cause this. Well, I noticed that my battery has 2 grounds coming out of it. The negative ground wire comes off the battery and splits into two. One of the grounds goes to the block and the other to the fender wall. The previous owner had somehow cut the ground going to the fender wall, so I simply removed it. I don't understand why you would need 2 ground wires. I couldn't even find a replacement ground wire that split into two, unless you go to the dealership.
Anyway, here are some pics of the head. I can't really see where the head gasket could have failed. Maybe somebody with a more experienced eye will notice. Also, there is a little bit more of that weird greenish build-up in some of the water jackets, but it is minimal. Anybody see anything like this before? Here are the head pics starting from the 1st cylinder at the front of the engine and working towards the back.
1st one at front of truck.
2nd one from front of truck.
3rd one from front of truck.
4th one. The one closest to firewall. This is the one that had low compression.
The other article suggested that an improperly grounded starter can cause this. Well, I noticed that my battery has 2 grounds coming out of it. The negative ground wire comes off the battery and splits into two. One of the grounds goes to the block and the other to the fender wall. The previous owner had somehow cut the ground going to the fender wall, so I simply removed it. I don't understand why you would need 2 ground wires. I couldn't even find a replacement ground wire that split into two, unless you go to the dealership.
Anyway, here are some pics of the head. I can't really see where the head gasket could have failed. Maybe somebody with a more experienced eye will notice. Also, there is a little bit more of that weird greenish build-up in some of the water jackets, but it is minimal. Anybody see anything like this before? Here are the head pics starting from the 1st cylinder at the front of the engine and working towards the back.
1st one at front of truck.
2nd one from front of truck.
3rd one from front of truck.
4th one. The one closest to firewall. This is the one that had low compression.
02-26-2007, 10:02 AM
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Well, I talked to the machine shop and they want $60 CDN to resurface a head, and $350 CDN to recondition it. The guy didn't see any point in simply resurfacing the head without inspecting it and redoing the valves and all that. But I could buy a new head from engnbldr.com for $300 US.
I'm wondering if I should simply ditch this head for a new one, or just go cheap and save $300 by only having the head resurfaced. My worry then is that I'll run into head trouble again, or maybe the head is not good and I'll have to tear into the engine again and the $300 I saved will be respent just getting back to this point.
argh...
any opinions?
I'm wondering if I should simply ditch this head for a new one, or just go cheap and save $300 by only having the head resurfaced. My worry then is that I'll run into head trouble again, or maybe the head is not good and I'll have to tear into the engine again and the $300 I saved will be respent just getting back to this point.
argh...
any opinions?
02-26-2007, 10:50 AM
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I looked at getting my head cleaned up, valves/spring/etc all locally, and I decided to go with a Street RV head from EB. Brand new, big valves, surfaced assembled pretty much ready to drop in for $488usd.
I wanted to get some port work done on my head anyways, so the EB head was actually more cost effective.
I wanted to get some port work done on my head anyways, so the EB head was actually more cost effective.
02-26-2007, 10:55 AM
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It looks like you did have some of the electrolysis thing happenin'. The corrosion, the pitting....
I'd get the new head. For the price, you'd be in a good situation down the road....if you're block is all in good shape.
I'd get the new head. For the price, you'd be in a good situation down the road....if you're block is all in good shape.
02-26-2007, 10:57 AM
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I was in a similar situation. My head gasket was shot and I was in a tight spot both money and timewise. I got a head gasket kit and new head bolts (optional) from engbldr for something like $72.(excellent quality BTW) I pulled the head, cleaned up the block and head surface and slapped it all back together, didn't even machine the head. In my case it was an obvious gasket failure as my #1 piston was steam cleaned and shiney. All else looked good.
The reason I went so cheap and risky (no machining) was that my truck has 237k on it I'm and in need of an engine swap anyway and I couldn't see putting money into a head that would not be there that long. I figured if it works, great, and if not I'm only out about $100 and some time and I learned a whole bunch. (this was by far the most in depth wrenching that I have done) Plus everything up top is nice and clean and torqued to spec.
Your pics look like the valves are clean on cyl 4 in post#1 but not so much in post#11, and can't really see your #4 piston too well. Oil fixing your low compression leans towards rings not head IIRC (somebody correct me here). So you might think about an all or none approach. ie full rebuild or just throw it back together and see what you get. In my case I did fix/replace some things that would swap over to the new engine like rebuilt injectors etc. Since your there and question the timing covers integrity you might want to change that now at the least. They're not too expensive and you have it torn down already. If you get a new radiator get the one for the turbo as it has an extra core for better cooling capacity and fits right in. I know it may not matter up in Ottawa but it sure does down here in AZ.
BTW I'm almost a year into my slapdash HG job and so far so good.
The reason I went so cheap and risky (no machining) was that my truck has 237k on it I'm and in need of an engine swap anyway and I couldn't see putting money into a head that would not be there that long. I figured if it works, great, and if not I'm only out about $100 and some time and I learned a whole bunch. (this was by far the most in depth wrenching that I have done) Plus everything up top is nice and clean and torqued to spec.
Your pics look like the valves are clean on cyl 4 in post#1 but not so much in post#11, and can't really see your #4 piston too well. Oil fixing your low compression leans towards rings not head IIRC (somebody correct me here). So you might think about an all or none approach. ie full rebuild or just throw it back together and see what you get. In my case I did fix/replace some things that would swap over to the new engine like rebuilt injectors etc. Since your there and question the timing covers integrity you might want to change that now at the least. They're not too expensive and you have it torn down already. If you get a new radiator get the one for the turbo as it has an extra core for better cooling capacity and fits right in. I know it may not matter up in Ottawa but it sure does down here in AZ.
BTW I'm almost a year into my slapdash HG job and so far so good.
02-26-2007, 11:41 AM
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Yeah, I'm not keen on putting new head and then the block isn't in great shape. I don't really feel like pulling the block though. It would be a huge PITA right now.
I actually have a new timing cover that I can put on, so I'm going to do that.
I actually have a new timing cover that I can put on, so I'm going to do that.
02-26-2007, 05:06 PM
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Well here's my two cents. Had damn near the same predicament as you. 277,00 showing, bad hg repair before i bought it. TG cover ate out thats where the water was coming from. Didnt figure that out till I redid the head. Milled, was warped like hell, new valve guides and grind. Pressure test yippee ready to go. 300.00 bucks DO NOT FORGET TO CLEAN THE THREADS IN THE BLOCK!!!! Thats how,the gumby I bought it from bent the head. Put it back together crap water again. Thats when I learned about the timing cover. Finally decided to pull it and redo it. Damn glad i did pan full of crap. Oil pick up damn near blocked with sludge. Bearings about ready to go. So it gets bored 30 over crank turned 10 new cam and bunch of other goodies from Ted at engnbldr downey header yahoo. Start puttin it together damn the cam's tight have to turn it with a wrench. Crap, yeah the bottom of the head was flat but it warped so bad from the gumby hg job that the center journal was high centered. Got lucky the owner of Rebco here in town that did the machine work just swapped me for a head off his shelf. Spend the money while it's down, buy the head, take the block to a good shop and let them clean it and the crank up. You'l be a lot happier in the long run. RUN A TAP DOWN THE HEAD BOLT HOLES!!! Then clean the holes with some mineral spirits and long q tips
Well maybe that was .50 cents worth. Got it all back in yesterday couldnt find the damn distributor cap screws. Found em after work tonight put the cap on crank it to start, the damn o rings on the injectors are leaking. Damn
Jim
Well maybe that was .50 cents worth. Got it all back in yesterday couldnt find the damn distributor cap screws. Found em after work tonight put the cap on crank it to start, the damn o rings on the injectors are leaking. Damn
Jim
02-26-2007, 06:39 PM
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I think I'll consider doing a whole rebuild. This project may take a little longer than I figured. I don't feel like doing all this work and then having something little happen that messes it all up.
I think I'll probably end up doing the following:
Buy a new head.
Pull the block and send it out for inspection and bore it out if necessary.
New rings/pistons, bearings.
Install a new clutch.
Buy a new radiator.
Put the mess back together and hope for the best.
Am I being paranoid? This engine only has 168k miles on it. I kinda feel like I should maybe just slap the HG back on and put on the new timing cover and hope for the best. If I go through with all this, the engine will basically be completely rebuilt and should last another 150-200k miles though I doubt the rest of the truck will still be there. Keep in mind that this is supposed to be my winter beater rig. I originally bought this so that I wouldn't have to winter drive my lifted/locked YJ.
I think I'll probably end up doing the following:
Buy a new head.
Pull the block and send it out for inspection and bore it out if necessary.
New rings/pistons, bearings.
Install a new clutch.
Buy a new radiator.
Put the mess back together and hope for the best.
Am I being paranoid? This engine only has 168k miles on it. I kinda feel like I should maybe just slap the HG back on and put on the new timing cover and hope for the best. If I go through with all this, the engine will basically be completely rebuilt and should last another 150-200k miles though I doubt the rest of the truck will still be there. Keep in mind that this is supposed to be my winter beater rig. I originally bought this so that I wouldn't have to winter drive my lifted/locked YJ.
03-06-2007, 03:33 PM
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hey, i have a good working condition modine spi 945 4cyl rad 2yrs old @ 55545km exactly that is sitting in my garage in mtl for you. I took it off last october 06 in exchange for an automatic rad. Nothing's wrong with this rad, it has lots of life left. let me know if you are interested. make me an offer. I'm only 2hrs away, in mtl.
-chris
allochris@gmail.com
-chris
allochris@gmail.com
