Okay....I've come to a conclusion. My brain is fried! I mean, I'm reading all I can, but it's a lot to wrap my head around...lol! As well, I'm finding contradictions in my previous posts......which I will be editing or deleting shortly until I'm sure I understand how the system is designed and how to properly test it. See....I'm having to distinguish between the info for heated O2's and non-heated.<<<doing!>>> Just one correction here, though....the ECU does go into closed loop at idle, but the O2 signal (correct or incorrect) must be there and the engine has to reach proper temp's. Someone I believed to be correct told me it wouldn't. I'm reading definitely otherwise.


Mark, there's really a lot of information I'd have to compile in my head to condense down enough to make a more data informative post. Otherwise, it could seriously take a page or two to get all the info up. For now, though, I'd suggest disconnecting the O2S and see how the vehicle responds. It won't hurt anything and, in fact, your mileage will probably improve.(Without an O2, my wife's 4rnr has gone up to almost 19mpg's on this last tank) So, get your timing set where your motor's happy, get that FPR issue resolved (as that will affect everything the O2 system is trying to balance), and then figure out a way to either move your O2 closer to the engine or modify to a heated sensor. I found on a google search (on a Camaro forum) where one fellow's O2 was only a foot away from the collector down the exhaust, but it wasn't working right. Apparently, it's a fairly simple mod.

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229155

Something to consider. More later.....with links.

 

Links....

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h58.pdf
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h48.pdf
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h27.pdf

It's a lot to read all at once, so take your time. I've been spending my time here and there over the past several days to grock it all....put it in some cohesive, coherent picture....so that I can run it down for you. That just may be too much, though.....hahaha. We'll see. I'm determined.

 

In the first highlighted text, I should correct that. Not sure what I said before exactly, but if you're getting proper resistance at the diagnostic port, then the ECU would be also. At the port, your reading what the ECU's reading. But, you should be testing for voltage when the motor and sensor is warm. The resistance only tells you if the voltage that is to come from the O2 will do so unimpeded. But, the voltage will tell you if the O2 is responding correctly to changes in engine operation. So, if 300-600ohms is the resistance spec, then this would mean the wiring is good.

Another correction, in the second highlighted text........the ECU doesn't start making fuel corrections based on O2 input until the engine is warm and in closed loop. Otherwise, in open loop, it's running entirely on other sensor input (ECT, TPS, IAT) ignoring O2. But, the O2 is still sending a signal and the ECU's trying to determine if it's warm enough for closed loop. Maybe that's more of a clarification than correction, but still....

I'm done for the night. Chill out time. More later. Sorry to clutter your thread, Chef.

 

Chef! The O2 is supposed to be grounded on the manifold. I'm wondering if it's grounded well enough on the exhaust pipe being further away from the engine. Just for funzies, try running a ground wire from a good ground on the engine to one of the bolts on the O2.

 

Nevermind..

 

Nevermind? lol..... I shouldn't try to ground it to the block or firewall? I thought it's ground was, actually, the bolts. I've checked them to be sure they're tight, ...but I could add a ground wire if you double-confirm it's worth a shot? There IS an additional 2 feet of power wire, ...but if the ECU is reading it, and it's grounded by itself to the Stainless Pipe....then hmmmmm. lol.

I will read up on the links(bookmarked them all).....I'm just so short on time most often. However, trust me, I've all but eliminated my 'free time' and 'entertainment' from my list until I get this sussed away! lol.

I have a couple days, starting this afternoon, to check things; Unplug the Booster and plug the plenum port ...... Ground the O2 if you suggest ......... take a proper reading of the O2 at the Diag. port(if you're saying I'm not)...... maybe disconnect it and check the mileage. So, if I'm getting this right, ....with the O2 unplugged, the ECU will eliminate that as 'portion of the measurement suggestions for fuel/air' and instead go to pre-set/closed loop settings?(or will it go to open loop settings?)

I have to add that I can't remember if I tested for ohms or volts. I did what the Toy Mechanic told me to do.....I'll look back in the thread to be sure what setting I was on, etc..... Maybe it was between 3-6v? I'll read back and find it! lol

Hopefully, the "mechanic broker" will find that Vacuum test shop for me..... I guess not many use that machine any more.

Anything in particular you want me to check, in order?

 

I just re-read, Thook, guys,

I don't say whether it was ohms or volts on the O2 test. Either way, I would think it's functioning if it's fluctuating between 300 and 600 ohms every second throughout testing.(???) Think that's what Thook was saying

I also wonder if, .....for some reason, my FPR, IF IT'S NOT working properly(which it seemed to test ok with the vacuum pump test, but WHO KNOWS???)...MAYBE that's causing too much fuel pressure at times and subsequently the ECU forces the Idle Air Mixture 'UP', to meet the requirement due to more fuel? I doubt it's my injectors, as they've been serviced and checked, TWICE! lol....I doubt it's the pump, as it's a brand new Aisin........

Let me just do another quick list of things;

1. New Denso Plugs at .32
2. New LCE Wires and New OEM Cap and Rotor(thanks Flecker for nudging me back to OEM on those)
3. Timing at 7* BTDC(it has a mild cam and if I go to 5* it seems to need more air-Idle screw out more)
4. New Coolant Temp Sensor
5. New Thermo-Temp Time Switch(top of Thermostat Housing)
6. New Denso O2(which seems to be working according to Diag. Port Tests....willing to further verify!)
7. New Fuel Pump
8. All new Vacuum Lines, including IACV front and back, PCV and Front CV OEM lines
9. BVSV seemed to pass the Vac. Pump Test fine(never verified if it's supposed to HOLD vacuum in the gauge...it doesn't, but it does become passive when warm as it's supposed to)
10. New OEM IACV
11. New OEM TPS
12. Tested Air Gap and Pick up Resistance (.016 snug and 158ohm)
13. Tested Coil
14. Swapped Used, Bench Tested AFM
15. Replaced ECU and it seemed to smooth out(It was formerly starting out fine at start up-idle....then within a minute, it would idle down to 500 and jump all over the place) Replaced ECU with donor and seemed to idle fine and no longer drop down in idle.(???)
16. Replaced Throttle Body with Donor and placed New TPS on, adjusted to specs with Stop plate/screw adjusted 1/4 turn in after touching plate.
17. Dielectric Grease in almost every connection in the Truck.
18. New Clutch, complete, with Master and Slave(Odd, ...When cold it seems to release right off the floor, but further up as it warms up fully and driving around a decent amount..... When cold again, same thing.....???)
19. Valves adjusted by Flecker(22re-Stud) with me learning and verifying every setting/adjustment)
20. Did Throttle Body Cleaner and Water Tests, smothering intake and most every line we could find(I think Flecker would attest that we didn't get ANY fluctuation in idle, .....at all, during either test).....but I'M DOWN with the Smoke test..../ Need a VERY MUCH SOLID TEST for the Booster, other than the book, just to eliminate it...otherwise, I'll have to swap it out just to check and bleed lines, etc. If I do that, I'm going to replace the Master while I'm in there, ...it's got at least 200,000 Miles on it(and the fluid is GROSS, lol)
21. Plenum, Lower intake and Throttle Body are SPOTLESS, including all inlet valves/connections to plenum.
22. Checked/Verified EGR operation
23. I have a donor Modulator that looks brand new, .....but considering the EGR is functioning, seemingly, very well, I'm not sure that's an issue(But I've cleaned the filter on my EGR Modulator and EGR was cleaned fairly well, also)
24. New OEM PCV
25. Dizzy and Chain are RIGHT ON, Brand new.(Dizzy is not new, only Chain assembly and cover)
26. All NEW Motor, including Crank
27. New Alternator, Water Pump, Oil Pump, Seals, V.Cover Gasket and Grommets
28. Injectors; All cleaned, verified flow, new filters, o-rings and baskets by RC
29. New Exhaust, CAT included

NOT replaced;

1. VSV's(However; I've tested the VSV in rear twice, per Vacuum Pump Test Specs....At throttle is doesn't pull vacuum, at idle it does)
2. FPR
3. Damper
4. Coil-Ignitor-Pick up-Secondary-Regulator
5. Haven't replaced Shielded Wire from harness to O2(but apparently, maybe, I'm getting uninterrupted signal...HOWEVER; As Flecker said, ..."Maybe it's just noise due to the missing Shielded wire, being so much longer)
6. This code did NOT APPEAR until we replaced the ECU with the donor. (And, ...My codes seemed to change in the way they were read with the new ECU..... I.e. They were just simple 2 or 4 or 7....Now they're '2' -.75 or so second pause- '1', then a few seconds, then back to the formerly mentioned '2' - .75 ...... etc.)


I'm out of time for now, but I'll copy and paste the above with any new info, later on(for those who don't read back....which I understand, as this thread has become OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS!) HAHAHAHAHA!

 

Yeah....nevermind...LOL! Oh man......I was up real late reading, and I was just posting whatever little ideas occurred to me. I think the ground wire is probably not necessary, at this point. I was just tired and grabbing at straws.

Without an O2S signal, the ECU will never go into closed loop. Closed loop is based on O2S data. They go hand in hand. So, if you disconnect it, it will revert to open loop where all of it's fuel trim is based on the coolant temp, air temp, throttle position, and battery voltage fluctuations. Basic injection duration is based on engine load from the measuring plate and rpm signal from the distributor. The previously mentioned, highlighted input is used to modify/trim that. O2S, aside from battery, is the least of influences of all. Soooo...if everything is working right, you should get better mileage. BUT! that's a big IF, though. You see, you're not going into closed loop. The mileage your getting is a result of everything before O2 input....open loop. Check that vacuum leak potential.

Oh, and the moment you hit the throttle, the O2 is exposed to a lot more exhaust flow. Also, rpm signal, throttle position, measuring plate, battery voltage all have changed while O2 voltage is not on par. According to autoshop101, the O2 has to switch a minimum of 8 times/10 seconds. Every 2 seconds (what you were seeing on your meter) is only 5 times/10 seconds. This is triggering the code. Do verify if you tested with ohms or voltage. Voltage should fluctuate between 0 and 5v. Ideal is in the middle with an average of 2.5v.

That's where I'm with it this afternoon after all the reading has had a chance to gel. Sorry if it's confusing, Chef. Bear with me....

 

Oh crap!!! You just posted again......with different info! Some of the details I've been going by you'ved changed....haha.

I don't have anymore time right now. I'll be back later.

 

Didn't mean to fluster ya, Thook! lol.... I WONT SAY SORRY, don't worry, lol.

I just posted up some 'update'age, lol....basically, because I thought you and some other Guru's, Semi-Guru's or just someone in passing, by chance, might say "AH HAHHHHHHH, ....TRY THIS!" hahahha. Honest, only doing that as a courtesy to anyone that might want to chime in but possibly, as I fully understand--- "Just don't have time to read back"...I've edited a couple things that I posted, ...might want to read through again and be sure I didn't mistype something that threw you off, ....if/when you have time, of course,hehehe.

Thanks Thook!(or anyone else who takes time to help me out...I know it's scarce now adays!)

Mark

 

Real quick post.....

The O2S only needs to be shielded up around the coil. That and the spark plugs wires are the only electrical interference.

 

'Nother.......

Read this, Chef. You might find it really, really interesting. Let me know what you think. I think I'm going to do what Roger Brown has done and see what happens.

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116/vsv-help-127476/

Edited.....sorry 'bout that. I'm popping in and out while working on the fridge. I've got it fixed, just puttin' it back together. Then, I have to wire in an outlet to run it. Yippeee!

 

Read......? hehehe.

 

See edit!!!!

 

Ok, so I've read that thread, top to bottom. His is slightly newer, thus he has 4 VSV's. Mine has the 2, for FPR and A/C. I understand what Roger did with his bypass, I've read through his threads on that, exhaustively. One thing I wondered, however, is "Doesn't running constant vacuum to the FPR defeat the purpose of the VSV, which is to STOP pulling vacuum when under load?" I mean, .....if it's constantly pulling vacuum on the FPR, ...wouldn't that mean the system is never able to get up higher pressures under loads or WOT?

I think when testing my VSV with the gauge, I was looking for the VSV to drop off the map in vacuum when load was applied, that way the FPR could stay out of the way and create more Fuel Pressure to give it the fuel it needs when stomping on it, etc..... Am I reading into this, improperly?

What I suppose COULD be happening, maybe, is if the FPR is busted, or malfunctioning(or the VSV is, causing a malfunction).....the Fuel could be constantly pumping at highest pressure; Thus, the fuel consumption, as well as the missing, due to being too much fuel and pressure, ....as well as, possibly, the 02 being set off from the get go?

I believe I did a Vacuum Pump Test on the VSV as well..... I'll have to read back in my thread. That's another whole set of tests that, as you can see, I didn't include in my lengthy list, above, ....or did I? hahahaha.

Man, Thook, ....I'm just so confused at times! lol. I believe Flecker had me plug my FPR directly into the intake, which I did into the 3 Vacuum port Filter toward the back of the plenum, ..... as I remember, it didn't change much, if anything at all. I have NO fuel in the vacuum line above the FPR, which I was told 9 of 10 times will tell you if your FRP is bad. I also haven't had the desire to spend 60$ on a Fuel Pressure Test Kit, and they no longer rent them out at the Auto Parts Stores(I've called them all, I believe).

I'm going to head out there, bi-pass the Booster, plugging it's port at the plenum(thanx for the Grommet, Flecker!). Then I'll try bypassing the VSV again to the FPR. I think FLecker and I tested the both VSV's and found under voltage that they failed what they were supposed to do. Guess I'll have to read back through the links you've provided asap, when I get time, because as I remember, ....when turning on the AC button on the dash.....My truck idles down a lil and you can tell it's working that way, no?(the A/C VSV I mean).

I'll wait for you to chime in again, Thook, ...and don't worry, if you've had enough at a certain point, ...I'LL UNDERSTAND! lol. Thanks again for all the research thus far, Buddy! Great help in trying to shorten the P.O.E. list!

Mark

 

It's all good, Chef. I know it's a lot of info to put together and can be confusing. Didn't mean to alarm or overwhelm you. I was just pointing out the thread because I found it interesting someone (namely Roger) had actually removed the FPR VSV permanently. But, when I think about, it's not all the remarkable because, as it says in the thread, some 2wd model 22re's don't have one. But, then, neither does my wife's '92 3vze! Given that Roger's not had ANY problems removing his, I was just wondering how necessary it is regardless of what the technical articles state. I mean, how many people remove the EGR system without issue? Both of my 4rnr's do not have one anymore. No problems there even in light of how critical they seem to be according to the articles. By articles, I refer to autoshop101. And, if they aren't THAT critical, I was wondering if would serve to ease your suffering by bypassing it until you resolve other possible bugs.

I was going to clarify for you some of your post above on the technicalities, but I think it's chill time. It's good to back off a bit and let info digest sometimes. I've said all I can about how it works.......even posted the links. But, if I were you, I'd forget about all that for now and just go down the list and test whatever you intuitively have a feeling towards. I'm with you on it. Let's not get burned out. It's supposed to be an enjoyable challenge. Can be, anyway.

 

I tried some things today, like unplugging the O2, bypassing the FPR, unplugging the booster. I will do it again, tomorrow, and try to take some detailed notes for you, guys.

I did notice, with the FPR bypassed, O2 unplugged, it seemed to run fine at first, fairly smooth and the idle came up to about 900 within a minute or less....However, it then idled down, eventually, forcing me to screw the Idle/Air screw out quite a bit to keep it up in idle, as it seemed to want to idle down to around 600 after punching the throttle a couple times. It would idle down, then eventually creep back up on it's own, each time I punched the throttle a lil bit.(When it would get up to 2000 or so, it would roll down initially to about 550-600 AND THEN crawl up slowly to 800 or so).AHHHHHHHH!

Something I notice, with BOTH Throttle bodies(my original and this donor)..... The idle Air Screw SEEMS to be sucking in air through the screw housing. When I push against it from the side, it tends to stop making as much noise in the AFM Pipe and through that side.(the HISSSSSING seems to quiet up). I think I need to replace the grommet inside, on either one that I use, but I also think that something else, entirely, is causing the idle to creep up, etc., ETC., ETC., ETC...... When I spray Throttle Body cleaner on that screw, even if it's out fairly far, ....no real change in idle.

Like I said, I'll try this stuff tomorrow and take notes and maybe some video. I hear a lil exhaust noise as well, but it's hard to pinpoint. I'll fish around and find whatever leak there might be.

Thanks, Night,

Mark

PS> Thanks Thook .....I hear ya, and honest, I'm still enjoying it. Just feel more confused and a bit flustered than anything like "angry" or "HAD ENOUGH", lol. Just seems to odd with nearly everything new, or cleaned out, or ....you get my point, ahhaaa.

Yep, chill time, INDEED! I've been so busy I've not had much time to tackle it....I think that's just a bit discouraging at times as I've put so much work and time into it. S'all good, ....one way or the other, this WILL be solved!....Hopefully sooner than later, hahaha.

 

I spent a long time working all the bugs out of my wife's 4rnr after we got it. If I had to do over again, I would. But, I wouldn't fret nearly as much as I did. I think it was more overwhelming due to the fact much of everything was such a mystery and intimidating.

Why'd you bypass the FPR? Do you mean you bypassed the switching valve? You shouldn't bypass the FPR. You need that....hehehe. If it was the FPR you bypassed, all that happened was the FPR shut fully closed. This raised your fuel pressure too high. With strong vacuum on it, how it's supposed to be at idle, the regulator is wide open. Less fuel pressure. Are you getting a sense of how this works, yet?

To test for the vac leak around the bypass screw, you need to use starting fluid or propane. Something more volatile than TB cleaner. Do you have any plumber's tape/vinyl pipe thread tape? You could wrap a thin layer of that around the bypass screw and see if that helps seal it up.....if suspect a leak there.

 

Oops, I worded it wrong, maybe, lol.

I meant, "I unplugged the FRP vacuum line at the VSV and plugged it into the 3 Prong Vacuum line on the Plenum, so that, the FPR was drawing vacuum off the Plenum, rather than that VSV. I also plugged the VSV up with the stopper I'd removed from the 3 Prong filter thingy toward the rear on the Plenum. I hope that's more clear.

Yeah, I understand how it works, and in fact, I've ran the Vac Pump Test on the VSV before,....which it SEEMED to pass. I think I already mentioned that above, don't mean to repeat myself, lol.

I hear ya on your wives rig! lol. I once had a 68 Chevelle with a 396, and it was wreaking havoc, stalling at lights, etc. Eventually, one day, being puzzled as it was COMPLETELY restored, ... I decided to tear down the larger wiring(power cable, etc.), ....and it wound up being a defective BRAND NEW power cable from the battery. It was frayed and nearly broken inside the insulation.......where only 3 threads were actually joined, hahahaha. I'D CHECKED EVERYTHING, returned the coil, etc., ....and VOILA, .....a STUPID MANUFACTURER DEFECT! lol.

 

Explore the possible of the idle bypass screw. Try the tape. It's dirt cheap. If it helps, get a new seal. I think it's just o-ring you can get at a parts store.

Your Chevelle.....yeah, power is all important. Especially so with EFI....