86 4Runner stall issues
01-18-2014, 10:00 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
86 4Runner stall issues
Good weekend, fellow YotaTechies.
I have 86 runner that I am having issues with getting it to run. I'll give a short background and then what all I have tested.
Background: I purchased the 86 three years ago. Guy said he hadn't ran it in some time and when he tried, it did not run. He purchased a new filter and injectors and decided he needed to sell.. My uncle and I dropped the tank, drained it, cleaned it, installed new filter and injectors. And... it starts right up. Purring. I drive it for a month or so and I have to limp it home one day. It's running extremely rich and takes 80% throttle or so (3 yrs ago. My memory is a little fuzzy) just to get down the highway. I have to return to school out of state and it sits for a while. Some friends of my uncle tried looking at it and couldn't figure it out. Well... To quote George Costanza, I'm back baby!
Diving in:
Here's the symptom(s). If you get it to crank, which used to be easier, it would run for 4-6 seconds sound normal and good then just stall and die almost like you cut the key off. Since I've been scouring the forums here and on a couple others it seems to point to the cold start injector is dumping a little fuel, it's being burned off and then nothing else is there for it to continue running?
I don't really have a clue so I'm going off suggestions. They say it's the thermo coolant sensor. I replace it. Nothing. Then they say MAF. Got a used one, replace and no change.
This is when I get a FSM and start reading and searching these forums like a mad man.
I check my old coolant thermo sensor and it is to spec,
Same with the original and newer MAF.
I check the main (efi) relay to FSM specs
COR relay to spec
Made sure I'm getting 12v to my pump.
Try with the fuel pump jumper installed.
Check all my grounds (especially the one underneath the plenum)
Made sure all B+ or 12v pins on my ecu are getting their 12v
Repeat with grounds on the ecu. (After reading another forum that said they checked these things and had look with splicing a ground to battery into the brown wire ground off the ecu , I did the same with no such luck. Sigh.)
Checked Solenoid Resistor. Checked out perfectly.
Getting power to the 2 yellow and 2 blue wires that power the injectors.
According to FSM, I checked the voltage to the N10 and N20 injector pins on the ecu. Good to go.
Fuses all look good. Later go back and use multimeter to make sure they are not broken.
Plugs are firing. Then we get it to start for a moment and my uncle snatches one of the plug wires off and it is still hitting.
Make sure all three wires from the igniter/coil have continuity to their respective pins on the ecu. Mainly the wire that carries the Ne signal. I was starting to wonder if the signal wasn't reaching the ecu, therefore it wasn't using the signal to ground the injectors.
Opened wire loom and load and behold just like so many threads say, the 4 grounds that go to the two white wires that feed into the ecu, are ok looking. However when I do a continuity check between the splice and ground on battery I get around 75 ohms and no ping to let me know that there is continuity. Haha, know would be a good time to let y'all know I do have something going for me. I just purchased an 85 SR5 with 170k miles. Also it's great to have it in the shop to compare with the 86 whenever I get an idea or want to check something electrically. This is my ray of sunshine in these dark and flustering days of winter haha. The 85 I can do the aforementioned continuity check and the meter pings and reads a much lower 37 ohms. So we decided we're going to redo this connection. Wow! I'll post photos later, but the wires are black from corrosion and very stiff from it. I start going back towards the injectors and one wire in particular is very very nasty. It's become sticky to the touch. I'm excited now! Maybe we've finally figured it out. I find online BWD product #28423; they're the two wire connectors that clip onto the injectors. I'm so excited and I don't trust any of these ground wires to the injectors, so I buy four of the new clips. We solder and heat shrink all of the wires into place. Check for continuity to make sure our connections are good. Put everything back and.. ...... Same issue. I'm at wits end.
I am confident with my checks of the aforementioned parts and sensors, but since we have the 85 in the shop. We start swapping some of the equipment to see if the 85 will remain running.
1. ecu
2. COR
3. Main relay
4. Igniter and coil
5. Ignition switch...just because.
Still starting and running for the 85
After all this research, I feel as though the 86 Runner is initially starting from the cold start injector but dies when it no longer gets fuel.
I went to radio shack yesterday and got a little red 12v LED light. To use as a good ol boy noid light. I Starting with the 85 to make sure this idea works. Using an alligator clip I clip one end of the light to the 4 to 2 wire ground wires joint that run to the injectors and clip another end on the blue wire hot wire that runs to two injectors.
*(For those who come across this in the future and are having similar issues)*
Your grounds should be grounded when the ign is off and the blue and yellow hot wires that run between the solenoid resistor and injectors should have 0volts. When you turn the ign to on: The grounds should no longer be grounded (would cause the injectors to fire) and the blue and yellow wires have 12v.
So I start the 85 and the light is off at first (not grounding injectors to fire within first 1-2 seconds as the engine uses the cold start injector), Now it's flickering as expected. Ramp up the throttle and hold and the light is a solid red (injectors firing very very rapidly) dump the throttle and the light dies off for a split second (rpms plummet) then returns to a steady flicker. I go and run the same setup on the 86 (problem child). I can't get the 86 to run for more than 5 seconds or so, but after initial start up. The homemade noid light goes to flickering before the engine dies.
So now I know I'm getting the ground pulses to my injectors.
I'm at wits end. I need any help that y'all can offer. I have no more ideas. I know this is a long post but I wanted to offer all information I could for the more experienced and knowledgeable. I love researching this problem and reading through countless threads on this forum. I have learned so much about my 4Runner. I look forward to joining y'alls ranks one day. I promise I have read through this forum and others for weeks before posting (I know that repeats are annoying and often criticized) I have at least 15-20 bookmarks from this site alone not counting the others.
I have 86 runner that I am having issues with getting it to run. I'll give a short background and then what all I have tested.
Background: I purchased the 86 three years ago. Guy said he hadn't ran it in some time and when he tried, it did not run. He purchased a new filter and injectors and decided he needed to sell.. My uncle and I dropped the tank, drained it, cleaned it, installed new filter and injectors. And... it starts right up. Purring. I drive it for a month or so and I have to limp it home one day. It's running extremely rich and takes 80% throttle or so (3 yrs ago. My memory is a little fuzzy) just to get down the highway. I have to return to school out of state and it sits for a while. Some friends of my uncle tried looking at it and couldn't figure it out. Well... To quote George Costanza, I'm back baby!
Diving in:
Here's the symptom(s). If you get it to crank, which used to be easier, it would run for 4-6 seconds sound normal and good then just stall and die almost like you cut the key off. Since I've been scouring the forums here and on a couple others it seems to point to the cold start injector is dumping a little fuel, it's being burned off and then nothing else is there for it to continue running?
I don't really have a clue so I'm going off suggestions. They say it's the thermo coolant sensor. I replace it. Nothing. Then they say MAF. Got a used one, replace and no change.
This is when I get a FSM and start reading and searching these forums like a mad man.
I check my old coolant thermo sensor and it is to spec,
Same with the original and newer MAF.
I check the main (efi) relay to FSM specs
COR relay to spec
Made sure I'm getting 12v to my pump.
Try with the fuel pump jumper installed.
Check all my grounds (especially the one underneath the plenum)
Made sure all B+ or 12v pins on my ecu are getting their 12v
Repeat with grounds on the ecu. (After reading another forum that said they checked these things and had look with splicing a ground to battery into the brown wire ground off the ecu , I did the same with no such luck. Sigh.)
Checked Solenoid Resistor. Checked out perfectly.
Getting power to the 2 yellow and 2 blue wires that power the injectors.
According to FSM, I checked the voltage to the N10 and N20 injector pins on the ecu. Good to go.
Fuses all look good. Later go back and use multimeter to make sure they are not broken.
Plugs are firing. Then we get it to start for a moment and my uncle snatches one of the plug wires off and it is still hitting.
Make sure all three wires from the igniter/coil have continuity to their respective pins on the ecu. Mainly the wire that carries the Ne signal. I was starting to wonder if the signal wasn't reaching the ecu, therefore it wasn't using the signal to ground the injectors.
Opened wire loom and load and behold just like so many threads say, the 4 grounds that go to the two white wires that feed into the ecu, are ok looking. However when I do a continuity check between the splice and ground on battery I get around 75 ohms and no ping to let me know that there is continuity. Haha, know would be a good time to let y'all know I do have something going for me. I just purchased an 85 SR5 with 170k miles. Also it's great to have it in the shop to compare with the 86 whenever I get an idea or want to check something electrically. This is my ray of sunshine in these dark and flustering days of winter haha. The 85 I can do the aforementioned continuity check and the meter pings and reads a much lower 37 ohms. So we decided we're going to redo this connection. Wow! I'll post photos later, but the wires are black from corrosion and very stiff from it. I start going back towards the injectors and one wire in particular is very very nasty. It's become sticky to the touch. I'm excited now! Maybe we've finally figured it out. I find online BWD product #28423; they're the two wire connectors that clip onto the injectors. I'm so excited and I don't trust any of these ground wires to the injectors, so I buy four of the new clips. We solder and heat shrink all of the wires into place. Check for continuity to make sure our connections are good. Put everything back and.. ...... Same issue. I'm at wits end.
I am confident with my checks of the aforementioned parts and sensors, but since we have the 85 in the shop. We start swapping some of the equipment to see if the 85 will remain running.
1. ecu
2. COR
3. Main relay
4. Igniter and coil
5. Ignition switch...just because.
Still starting and running for the 85
After all this research, I feel as though the 86 Runner is initially starting from the cold start injector but dies when it no longer gets fuel.
I went to radio shack yesterday and got a little red 12v LED light. To use as a good ol boy noid light. I Starting with the 85 to make sure this idea works. Using an alligator clip I clip one end of the light to the 4 to 2 wire ground wires joint that run to the injectors and clip another end on the blue wire hot wire that runs to two injectors.
*(For those who come across this in the future and are having similar issues)*
Your grounds should be grounded when the ign is off and the blue and yellow hot wires that run between the solenoid resistor and injectors should have 0volts. When you turn the ign to on: The grounds should no longer be grounded (would cause the injectors to fire) and the blue and yellow wires have 12v.
So I start the 85 and the light is off at first (not grounding injectors to fire within first 1-2 seconds as the engine uses the cold start injector), Now it's flickering as expected. Ramp up the throttle and hold and the light is a solid red (injectors firing very very rapidly) dump the throttle and the light dies off for a split second (rpms plummet) then returns to a steady flicker. I go and run the same setup on the 86 (problem child). I can't get the 86 to run for more than 5 seconds or so, but after initial start up. The homemade noid light goes to flickering before the engine dies.
So now I know I'm getting the ground pulses to my injectors.
I'm at wits end. I need any help that y'all can offer. I have no more ideas. I know this is a long post but I wanted to offer all information I could for the more experienced and knowledgeable. I love researching this problem and reading through countless threads on this forum. I have learned so much about my 4Runner. I look forward to joining y'alls ranks one day. I promise I have read through this forum and others for weeks before posting (I know that repeats are annoying and often criticized) I have at least 15-20 bookmarks from this site alone not counting the others.
Last edited by GasTurbine; 01-18-2014 at 10:13 AM.
01-18-2014, 01:07 PM
#2
Registered User
This is in random order and I'm noobish, but here you go:
Have you checked for any stored codes to give you a clue? You may have had the battery disconnected too much at this point to check again...
Call the guy at 22REperformance. He loves talking about this stuff and encourages folks to call with questions. He will at least have some ideas. When I was having intermittent power loss and hard cold starts on my ~2 week old (to me) '85, he helped me through the basics and after tightening my air intake tubing (me=noob) it runs like a top. (I had previously solved the hard cold starts with a patched up cold start injector connector)
If your temp sensors are working correctly, I thought the cold start injector only operated when starting temps were less than ~32deg, but it sounds like your '85 and '86 are both using the cold start injector to fire up 100% of the time. Seems odd.
Are the 4 main injectors to spec? I know they're new, but...
I know the fuel pump 12V checks out, but what does the fuel pressure look like at startup and when it dies?
Can you do something weird like put a normal injector wire harness connector on the cold start injector? Doing that may not let it start at all, but I would just be interested in seeing if it would keep running/sputtering, which would at least prove your theory that CSI is allowing 5 sec of running. That one is reaching.
Good luck!!
Have you checked for any stored codes to give you a clue? You may have had the battery disconnected too much at this point to check again...
Call the guy at 22REperformance. He loves talking about this stuff and encourages folks to call with questions. He will at least have some ideas. When I was having intermittent power loss and hard cold starts on my ~2 week old (to me) '85, he helped me through the basics and after tightening my air intake tubing (me=noob) it runs like a top. (I had previously solved the hard cold starts with a patched up cold start injector connector)
If your temp sensors are working correctly, I thought the cold start injector only operated when starting temps were less than ~32deg, but it sounds like your '85 and '86 are both using the cold start injector to fire up 100% of the time. Seems odd.
Are the 4 main injectors to spec? I know they're new, but...
I know the fuel pump 12V checks out, but what does the fuel pressure look like at startup and when it dies?
Can you do something weird like put a normal injector wire harness connector on the cold start injector? Doing that may not let it start at all, but I would just be interested in seeing if it would keep running/sputtering, which would at least prove your theory that CSI is allowing 5 sec of running. That one is reaching.
Good luck!!
01-18-2014, 07:05 PM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
Hey FGZ. Thanks for the reply. Yeah, Ive had issues with the codes because we're doing so much pulling and plugging but right now I've got a code 11. Switch issue. But The a/c doesn't work so I've got it unplugged, so I think that is what is causes that. I may be wrong though?
How do you get ahold of that person?
Yeah... Fuel pressure... I wish I could check it. I don't have that SST and my local yoga dealership doesn't have one
We are gonna pull the injectors and take them to Arkansas fuel injectors to test, they'll be up there Tuesday. I'm hoping it's them. They ohm out correctly. So when we pull them again, we're thinking about doing 4Crawlers trick of tapping the fuel rail so we can check it. If anyone has alternatives please share. The only thing I can say is, after this most recent time putting it back together we didnt have the CSI sealed well enough and it was spraying fuel like crazy. Obviously we have no idea what the pressure was though.
Keep the suggestions coming! Haha
How do you get ahold of that person?
Yeah... Fuel pressure... I wish I could check it. I don't have that SST and my local yoga dealership doesn't have one
We are gonna pull the injectors and take them to Arkansas fuel injectors to test, they'll be up there Tuesday. I'm hoping it's them. They ohm out correctly. So when we pull them again, we're thinking about doing 4Crawlers trick of tapping the fuel rail so we can check it. If anyone has alternatives please share. The only thing I can say is, after this most recent time putting it back together we didnt have the CSI sealed well enough and it was spraying fuel like crazy. Obviously we have no idea what the pressure was though.
Keep the suggestions coming! Haha
01-18-2014, 08:31 PM
#4
Registered User
Could it be the CSIs fault? Is it getting frisky and dumping in extra fuel? Again, I didn't know the CSI even fired if the temp was over 30deg, but I don't fully understand the system well enough. When the outside temps get up to 50 or better, can you unplug your '85 CSI and start it while the motor is cold? With my hard cold start issue, I really think my CSI was disconnected. It took lots more cranking, but it started. Unplugging it might rule out a frisky CSI, if that's even possible.
The guy I talked to at 22reperformance is just the guy that answered the phone both times I called. First time I called, I thought I needed to buy a sensor off of him, he talked me out of it. 530.892.1451, 22reperformance.com
I'm going to buy parts off of him someday to compensate him for his phone support lol
The guy I talked to at 22reperformance is just the guy that answered the phone both times I called. First time I called, I thought I needed to buy a sensor off of him, he talked me out of it. 530.892.1451, 22reperformance.com
I'm going to buy parts off of him someday to compensate him for his phone support lol
01-19-2014, 09:42 AM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
Haha, yeah it's always nice to build relations like that. I will look into the CSI operation, it has been pretty cold here while we've been working on it. Ha.
Forgot to mention I also ran across someone saying their alternator was causing some wild electrical problems so we unplugged it. Same results.
Forgot to mention I also ran across someone saying their alternator was causing some wild electrical problems so we unplugged it. Same results.
01-22-2014, 08:41 AM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
Picked up my injectors today. They are all cleaned up and spraying right. The guy who did the actual testing wasn't in yet. I wanted to hear if they were messed up before the cleaning. I was actually hoping to hear they were all messed up and my woes would be solved...
01-22-2014, 08:46 AM
#7
Registered User
Thread Starter
Also, went and talked with the owner of The Cruiser Company today in Little Rock and he said that since I've checked so many electrical items out that he would go fuel pressure (how to check how to check??) or a massive vacuum leak or possibly the booster.
Any thoughts about this? We're going to try the starter fluid trick.
Also, I'm thinking of using a banjo-bolt bleeder nipple. Anyone tried ths? It looks like it'd work perfect in the CSI bolt hole.
not the right size, but just a quick google image grab. I'm gonna check but I think that CSI banjo is m8 size. Hoping this rigging will allow us to check fuel pressure.
Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks
Any thoughts about this? We're going to try the starter fluid trick.
Also, I'm thinking of using a banjo-bolt bleeder nipple. Anyone tried ths? It looks like it'd work perfect in the CSI bolt hole.
not the right size, but just a quick google image grab. I'm gonna check but I think that CSI banjo is m8 size. Hoping this rigging will allow us to check fuel pressure.
Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks
Last edited by GasTurbine; 01-22-2014 at 08:47 AM. Reason: Better image
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01-22-2014, 08:53 AM
#8
Registered User
I forgot about vacuum. Since it will only run for 5 seconds I don't see how the starter fluid check will be very effective. But unplug the vac line from the booster and plug it up with a bolt or something, that will tell you if your booster diaphragm has a major leak. I think you would have noticed it when you were driving home when it first happened, though.
I wish I knew more about 22RE fuel pressure checking to help out. I got nothin.
I wish I knew more about 22RE fuel pressure checking to help out. I got nothin.
01-22-2014, 10:46 AM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
So there's one line going to the booster? Take the line off and plug it? How will I know if the booster is bad? I'll google and search for more info on the vac system.
Lol, I thought the same thing about starter fluid due to hardly any run time. I may get some new hose and just cut to length what I need
Lol, I thought the same thing about starter fluid due to hardly any run time. I may get some new hose and just cut to length what I need
01-22-2014, 11:06 AM
#10
Registered User
Yessir, there is but 1 big vac hose going to the booster. Hard to miss, it's at about the 10 o'clock position if you're looking at the booster.
See the nipple for it in the front left of this pic, borrowed from a for sale post:
There is so much vacuum going through there, that if you disconnect it your motor will die. So yes, plug it up good when you disconnect it.
The starter fluid trick can find small obscure vac leaks, so don't just start replacing hose unless you see obvious breaks IMO
See the nipple for it in the front left of this pic, borrowed from a for sale post:
There is so much vacuum going through there, that if you disconnect it your motor will die. So yes, plug it up good when you disconnect it.
The starter fluid trick can find small obscure vac leaks, so don't just start replacing hose unless you see obvious breaks IMO
01-22-2014, 11:13 AM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Ok. Bear with me, I'll disconnect the hose and plug it. Then try to crank? If no crank, it's bad or what? I'm not sure on how to tell if it's bad/good.
Thanks again, FGZ
Thanks again, FGZ
01-22-2014, 11:22 AM
#12
Registered User
No prob, I usually don't know enough to help so I'm glad to pitch in.
Yes, disconnect hose, plug it, try to crank. You should get at least 5 seconds of run time out of it like you are now.
If you get:
-the same 5 seconds of run time, your booster is probably not the issue
-more than 5 seconds of run time, your booster has a bad leak which will kill the motor just like unplugging the vac hose that goes into the booster - the motor dies
-less than 5 seconds or it doesn't crank, it shouldn't do that and that is weird and beyond my limited expertise.
Yes, disconnect hose, plug it, try to crank. You should get at least 5 seconds of run time out of it like you are now.
If you get:
-the same 5 seconds of run time, your booster is probably not the issue
-more than 5 seconds of run time, your booster has a bad leak which will kill the motor just like unplugging the vac hose that goes into the booster - the motor dies
-less than 5 seconds or it doesn't crank, it shouldn't do that and that is weird and beyond my limited expertise.
01-23-2014, 07:58 PM
#14
Registered User
Thread Starter
Back at it!
Got my injectors, which were apparently good to go. We syphoned the gas out because it was old(er), blew the lines with air, since we did that we checked the fuel filter by blowing through it and there was quite a bit of resistance, so I put a new one on. My uncle had pulled only one plug and it looked great. However he pulled another on a whim and it was badly fouled up. So he pulled the remaining and sure enough. 3 out of 4 were terrible. The 3 we didnt check early on. The lesson as always boys and girls, pull them all... Ran to O'Reillys and got 4 new. Put everything back together...
Drum roll.. She cranked up right away. After many fist bumps and turns of hearing that engine rev, we noticed it's running a little rich. But she is running. Strong. I think when we redid the injector wiring we fixed our problem, but that older gas plagued us as well as the plugs when we went to get it to run. Now that it runs we're gonna check for vacuum leaks and all. As well as make sure the timing is right on.
Got my injectors, which were apparently good to go. We syphoned the gas out because it was old(er), blew the lines with air, since we did that we checked the fuel filter by blowing through it and there was quite a bit of resistance, so I put a new one on. My uncle had pulled only one plug and it looked great. However he pulled another on a whim and it was badly fouled up. So he pulled the remaining and sure enough. 3 out of 4 were terrible. The 3 we didnt check early on. The lesson as always boys and girls, pull them all... Ran to O'Reillys and got 4 new. Put everything back together...
Drum roll.. She cranked up right away. After many fist bumps and turns of hearing that engine rev, we noticed it's running a little rich. But she is running. Strong. I think when we redid the injector wiring we fixed our problem, but that older gas plagued us as well as the plugs when we went to get it to run. Now that it runs we're gonna check for vacuum leaks and all. As well as make sure the timing is right on.
01-24-2014, 08:54 AM
#16
Registered User
Great to hear! I'm interested to hear how you can run rich with EFI - MAF issue? That's where you started this little trek, so I'll keep wondering until you track it down.
01-24-2014, 10:55 AM
#17
Registered User
Thread Starter
Cranked it up two or three times this morning and she just starts right up as soon as you wave your hand past the key. Also, it wasn't running rich at all. Could have been some old gas and being cranked for the first time in 3 years combo.
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