RoBatt

i wonder why toyota made the runner so underpowered, but i guess i would rather have a reliable underpowered engine than a powerful engine that i had to worry about all the time.

Elvota

I have heard that Toyota "rushed" to get a V6 on the market to keep up with Nissan. Comparing V6's back when they first came out, the 3.0 isn't really that bad or underpowered.

But comparing it to a more modern Toyota power plant such as the 3.4 you really start to see some major improvements. Which of course makes sense... no one here wants to see Toyota get stagnant or worse go backwards.

RobD

Dude, I have never pulled an engine before, let alone swapped one. You'll need a decent selection of metric wrenches and sockets, plus a hoist and engine stand, but with some hard work you might be able to do it yourself or with the help of a couple buddies.

CoedNaked

I'm not "Anti-3.4 swap" - I'm "practical." MY brother has a 3.4/manual in his 96 4runner that I have driven. While it's a step up from what I have, it's not really a huge step up. It's not jaw dropping or mind blowing or anything. It doesn't make me start to plan out my 3.4 swap and I have given it consideration in the past but it's not worth for me personally.

Also - did you conveniently forget to mention the minimum body lift and/or hood scoop you need to do a 3.4 swap due to it being a taller engine? How much would this cost?

Also, if a guy doesn't have much wrenching experience, what about special tools you would need to do this swap? Perhaps an engine hoist - how much does that cost to buy or rent? What about special sockets, tools, extensions, etc. ?
It'd be nice if you actually disclosed the real costs of the swap, which was my original point - you won't get them out of someone who has done the swap.

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

Anyone with half a brain who is seriously considering doing an engine swap, of ANY sort, should already have these tools.

If you do not already have a large selection of tools, and a cherry picker (engine hoist) you are silly to even attempt such a venture. I think the real costs of the swap HAVE been disclosed, but it varys person to person. For example, i would never buy all the factory parts from ORS, simply because I get a 30% discount from list price at the dealer. So my swap will likely cost much less than others.

I already have an engine hoist, large tool box full of tools, and engine stand, not to mention the resources for welding. Anyone who cannot pull an engine out of a car and does not have the tools to do the job, simply has no business even attempting a swap.


As for the hood scoop, it depends on how nice a job you do. I know Toyotafiberglass.com carries hoods that *may* clear the engine, tho im not sure. I you are going on the cheap, it only take a $4 blade to cut a hole in the hood.

RobD

The difference is substantial between the 3.0 and 3.4, but you're blinded to that because of your bias. If it's not for you, then so be it. Since you have no experience with it, your opinion is of limited use.

I didn't do a body lift, I cut a hole and used an aftermarket scoop. Truth be told, I probably didn't even need that. Without the underhood insulation, I was able to close the hood. You'd need the tiniest of plastic scoops to cover it. Since you have never done the swap, what "special sockets" are required for this swap? I got away with my set of Mastercraft sockets from Canadian Tire and few extra extensions. I didn't even use an impact wrench, though that would have made things much easier. The hoist I borrowed. Renting one for a couple weekends wouldn't be that big of a deal. I bought an engine stand for $40 from Canadian Tire, on sale, and gave that to my brother's neighbour in repayment for the help he gave me. The only thing really specialized I had to buy was a Heli Coil kit because I kept breaking rusty bolts.

As DeathCougar already pointed out, anyone contemplating doing this swap should have most of this stuff already. If not, it's a great excuse to add to the tool collection, since most of this stuff can be used for other repairs and isn't really a factor in the cost. If you were to buy a hoist, for example, that would be a useless expense. Fifty bucks for a set of ratcheting wrenches would be a great investment, however.

I have given him a complete breakdown about the major pieces to the swap. Feel free to ask him if I've "prettied up" any parts of this endeavour.

I have also told him that this swap is not very cost effective and you'll never get your money back out of it. But that is a risk I was willing to take and have zero regrets. I have 27000 kms (yes, twenty seven thousand) since August and have enjoyed every one of them. It pulls strong and makes a cool roar when I punch the gas. With the 3.0, I could barely climb the Roger's Pass in the Rockies in 3rd gear while trying to hold 70 km/h. Fuel economy with the new motor is marginally better (about 10-15%) but I've negated part of that by running 33" tires.

The biggest thing is that I have a vastly greater understanding of my truck and more experience and knowledge about the drivetrain than I had before.

I had never pulled an engine before this. Biggest thing I had ever done to this point is pull a head and do a timing chain.

If you're a total clutz with wrenches or have no time or inclination to do this, then sell and buy a truck with the 3.4 already in it. You'll be ahead of the game. If you love your truck, or bought it as a project as I did, then go for it and enjoy it.

tc

First, to the OP - what tire size and gears do you have. Regearing will be MUCH more cost effective than a motor swap.

CoedNaked - I hear what you're saying, but you're comparing a truck to a 4Runner. The extra several hundred pounds makes a HUGE difference. I wouldn't say it's apples to oranges, but certainly not a true comparison.

CoedNaked

Well I also happen to have a friend who owns a 2003 Tacoma xtracab 4x4 3.4V6 in the manual, and I've also driven his truck a few times, and once again, the acceleration difference is not mind blowing. His truck is newer and has much lower K than my brothers 4runner, and it weighs about 500 pounds less than my truck (I have heavy duty camper bars on mine) and once again it's still nothing to get too excited about. Yes, the 3.4 breaths extremely well down low, and it's got good grunt, but unless you are talking towing performance, you're not going to do much more with one truck over the other in stock trim and maintained. Many are also forgetting what a newer 3vze with good compression feels like.

If you analyze the hp per pound and torque per pound of these 2 respective engines look at it this way:

A stock 3.0 3vze equipped Toyota truck weighs 3850 pounds curb weight.
3850 pounds/ 150 HP = 25.6 pounds per HP
3850 pounds/ 180 TQ = 21.38 pounds per TQ

Lets say you swapped in a 3.4 5vzfe
3850/ 190 HP = 20.26 pounds per HP
3850/ 220 TQ = 17.5 pounds per TQ.

Now lets multiply the 3vze and the 5vzfe figures
to come up with some numbers to give you some hard data.

190 HP x 25.6 = 4864 pounds
220 TQ x 21.38 = 4703.6 pounds

We'll average those out to say 4775 pounds-ish and then minums 3850
which equals 925 pounds.

So you can basically drag around another 925 pounds, in theory, and get roughly the same performance as a 3vze, with a 5vzfe truck. That's a decent chunk of "engineering" that you can make up for. You can say that the 5vzfe breaths better and might have a better/flatter power band than the 3vze, but then you have to remember that hte 3vze equiped trucks also came with 4.56 or 4.88 geras, the 5vz's were I believe 4.10's and 4.30's in some cases if I'm not mistaken.

Also Rob, I want you to think about something you have said to me. You have indicated that you think I have a bias. Well lets think about this for a second. YOU, have plunged an investment into a 3.4 swap. YOU have made the decision to elect to do this over a 3vze rebuild or reman engine. So YOU have both of your feet through the door. I, on the other hand, have a relatively high mileage 3vze, and I am in a position to analyze either rebuild or swap. I haven't committed one way or the other, but let me just say if anyone has a bias, its you. I haven't ruled out the idea of a 3.4 swap completely, but let me just say I would probably lean more towards just rebuilding my 3vze when the time comes. But it is on my to do list to investigate how much a complete donor truck would cost and where I can get it from. But let me state firmly that that I will not once justify doing a 3.4 swap as a fiscally responsible endeavour. It will be because I like my current truck, and I want to upgrade it, and I have the money to do so.

mspa

I'd like to just jump in here and say something about the financial end of this.

I have a '88 4runner with just over 290,000 on my 3.0 V6. I'm hoping it will last long enough for me to afford either a swap or performance rebuild. I've had guys tell me I could save money and put in a small block Chevy . . . but then, it wouldn't be 100% Toyota, which is not what I want.

I will say that no matter the cost, I love my 1st gen enough that it would be worth the investment. With a lighter body and classic look, I would have a great performing, fun truck to drive . . . and that makes it worth it. It would still be way cheaper than buying a newer vehicle, with higher insurance premiums and with further mods, could be more unique.

I think the key may be to take a serious look at what you think you can afford and add about 20-30% on to it . . . since all of us know that when you step into a major project involving cars or trucks, you WILL always spend more just by the nature of those unexpected surprises.

RobD

First, your convoluted math aside, you're telling me that it's easy to overcome a 925 pound penalty? Carrying my kids plus all our luggage through the mountains has been made easy with the swap. The 3.0 could barely pull its own weight, let alone us through the hills. You're not going to make a 3.0 perform like a 3.4 in a cost-effective manner. The motor was pretty much near its max when it was built, given its restrictive intake.

Second, you should know better than to simply quote peak horsepower and torque. There is far more to it than the end numbers. There's how the power is created and at what RPM. As an example, the Hayabusa 1.3 liter motor makes 194 hp and 115 lbs of torque, but I doubt it would make a good replacement for a 22RE, since it doesn't create its peak until almost 10000 rpm.

Third, your argument about gearing is irrelevant. I didn't switch my gears in my 4Runner. Also, your argument seems to support that a 3.0 needs the lower gears to keep up with the higher geared 3.4.

Fourth, I have no bias. I owned the 3.0 for over a year. I know its shortcomings and also debated between rebuilding or swapping. For me, the cost of doing a rebuild, plus the downtime, simply wasn't an option, given the fact that I would have realized no power gains from doing it. I would have been no further ahead. When I did my swap, I weighed all options, including a 4.0 swap, but that would have taken far more money and fab than I wanted.

I don't know why you seem to think that you need a complete donor truck. I got everything I needed out of one yard in BC for $2000. I put $1000 into a brand new exhaust system. I spent another few hundred on the little bits and pieces needed to complete the project. I managed to get $300 from selling my 3.0, so that offset my costs somewhat.

At no point have I told him that this project is cheap. I have never, ever said that this is a fiscally responsible endeavour. Reread my posts. I told him he's probably better off selling his truck and buying something with the 3.4 in it.

But if you think for a second that you can get as much useful power out of a 3.0 for the same cost, go for it. You're delusional, but if you feel like putting a spit shine on a turd, I will not attempt to stop you.

If you want help setting up a 3.4 swap, I'd be glad to help with any questions you might have.

RobD

Exactly. Everyone has their reasons. Yours are along the similar lines of mine. We won't gain anything monetarily from this, but we will gain a certain amount of pride. You can't put a price on it, especially when you say "yeah, I swapped it myself".

Redeyejedi

i have a 94 pickup and have been reading up on the 3.4 swap for a a year and a half now. i have seen several builds as they were goin on, some here some on pirate etc etc. i have decided to swap in the 5vze when the time is right.
also, i think the 5vze is a better platform for mods anyway. and the stock numers wont apply either cause they'll be headers, exhaust, and intake. so maybe more like 230/250.....? SC?
theres many who've either modded out the 3.0 or swap it for a 3.4(or other). keep searching and reading builds and crunching numbers.

edit:: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...owners-136622/
here's a 3.0 guy who's all for modding the 3vz. - just posted

ozziesironmanoffroad

i plan on it in the future as well. oh wait.. i have a 22RE... im screwed.

tc

925lb/3850lb = 24%

THAT'S HUGE

hross14

I'll admit it--i didnt read all the threads--but if it were me.

Get complete 3.4 motor (mileage not important). Tear apart and rebuild/replace as necessary. FYI--(I have a 3.4 with 165K and it still has the cross hatches on the cyl walls). Put in place of 3.0 slow and enjoy....do this while you are still driving the 3.slow and you will find that as long as you pay attention and get the tools you need, it isnt that hard. But the feeling of doing all of this yourself--priceless....and you really get to know your truck. .02$

RobD

That's the drum I've been beating this whole time. You probably won't get the financial return on your investment, but that's not why we go through the fun/agony of modding them. Because they're OURS and we've made them that way.

RobD

Get a large ballpeen hammer and put a 7MGTE Supra motor into it...

Brenjen

My $.02 is this;

You already blew the motor - to drive the vehicle more, it will have to be replaced or rebuilt. FACT

The cost for a rebuild on a 3.0 or a junkyard replacement should be the base price you figure in. Then take the cost of a junkyard 3.4 & compare, the price difference is what the ACTUAL added cost is; give or take some cash for the added parts which you will need for the swap. A shop is going to be more expensive because the mechanics have to feed a family too; but I know here in Arkansas a shop will not charge you $5k to $6k to do the swap. Obviously it will be far cheaper to do the swap yourself & specialty tools like engine hoists can be borrowed for free from places like Auto-Zone etc.

It's simple economics; get out a calculator & a phone book....figure out how much it would cost to fix or replace the 3.0 - then do the same for the 3.4 & subtract the cost of the 3.0....the total you come up with is the "added" cost of a swap.

tc

Good point Brenjen - I would NEVER advocate swapping a good, running 3.0, but I for darn sure don't see putting another one back in if your 3.0 is toast.

infiltrator

can i ask why mileage is not important when buying an 3.4?
so let me get this straight. when doing a swap i need
-cherry picker
-engine mount
-good metric tools
-probably a couple extra people
-new timing belt
-new water pump etc.
-roof scoop because its gonna be a tight fit
dont you need the kit from ors? or you dont need it, but its helpful? the kit includes what a save from doing all the wiring? the kit alone is 2,000 isnt it? i used to have the stuff saved on my comp, but not anymore.