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I recently bought a non-running 1985 Pickup (4x4 5 Speed 264,000 miles). I have previously owned two other 300k mile 22R trucks and generally know my way around them pretty well. The only major piece of non-maintenance hardware I have ever had to replace is the igniter. The previous owner said he drove it every day until one day it just stopped running abruptly. It sounded like a coil or igniter to me. He said he replaced the plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor, and coil, but the truck still wouldn't start. Assuming it was the igniter, he pulled it off but saw the price of a new one, and decided to quit throwing parts at it and sell the truck. All of those parts look new to me. I initially thought he did not include the old igniter, so I bought one, $260, installed it and still no start.
The rotor does spin when the truck is cranking. I charged the battery over night to make sure it was strong enough. The lights and buzzer work as expected, and the starter sounds like it is going well enough. All of the fusible links and fuses in the fuse box under the hood are good.
So, I read through all of the 22R No Spark threads I could find. None of the quick fixes others have had luck with did it for me. Next, I did the ignition troubleshooting procedure from the 1985 FSM. Using a timing light, I got no spark from any plug wire, or the wire from ignition coil to distributor cap. I did the multimeter tests on the new looking coil and it passed. It passed all of the tests until the last igniter test. I did the AA battery test per the FSM on the igniter and heard a few furious clicks from somewhere under the hood then, nothing. The voltage did not drop as stated in the manual. According to the FSM that means to replace the igniter. Before spending another $260 (it is returnable as of right now, so not a huge problem), I decided to look into the $40 GM ignition swap that I have heard about.
I put everything in and it still would not start. I hooked up a timing light and got an intermittent spark signal on two different plug wires, so something is going on.
I dug through the old parts box from the PO and actually found the old igniter.
I have a few questions:
1. Is there an ignition relay similar to more modern vehicles somewhere that could be bad?
2. Is there way to test the 2 igniters I have while they are out of the vehicle? I did not test the old one.
3. How do I check the air gap on the distributor?
4. Does anyone have a good testing procedure for the GM setup?
5. Any other thoughts or suggestions?
This is a project vehicle not a DD so it is not an emergency, I have some time to figure it out. Thanks for your help.
Don't forget the ignitor grounds via it's housing to fender junction, you need freshly cleaned metal there.
The signal pickup inside the distributor is a common gap check( and adjustment for carburetor models), spec should be on the ignition section if that's not jumpinf off the page at your it will be in the appendix also.
Edit: gap 0.008 to 0.012, generator: 140 - 180 ohms
Don't forget to do a vibration check on the generator coil (tap lightly on the coils housing) to make sure it's not loose/broken
Last edited by Co_94_PU; 01-25-2017 at 11:17 PM.
Reason: Edit for gap and ohm spec of generator
So the first thing I did was check the distributor while it was on the truck per the FSM. The resistance in the signal generator was fine. The gap between signal rotor and pickup coil was huge, like .250" instead of .008". I loosened the two screws to fix it by moving the pickup coil closer.
The problem was that, unlike the picture below, the rotor was not lined up to the coil at a 90 deg angle. It is at more of a 45. This makes accurate measurement impossible. Does this indicate a problem with the distributor install? Should it be at a 90 like in the pic? I got it as close as I could, and put it back together.
Still no luck. I cleaned off the 2 grounds I was using and still nothing. I then checked the battery ground, it was looser than I would like, but still nothing after that. I am using a timing light to check spark. Here are my next steps:
1. Replace all plugs and wires. (I had to do one wire already because I yanked it off poorly). While I am doing that I might as well do a compression test since I have never heard this thing run.
2. Recharge battery
3. Switch to the stock toyota coil instead of the gm one. The toyota one checked out fine and is new.
4. Check the ignition switch via the connector in the steering column just to make sure there is continuity where there is supposed to be. 1985 trucks did not have a relay from the factory.
5. Consider a new distributor or reinstalling the old one at TDC?
Again, I am open to any thoughts and suggestions. Thanks.
I would get the basics out of the way first.
Compression test and a quick check of the valve adjustments.
Pull the plugs and see how they read and check the gap.
Next, given what you have there, would be swap out to the Toyota coil (doesn't cost anything).
IMO, hold of on new parts until you know where the problem is.
So the first thing I did was check the distributor while it was on the truck per the FSM. The resistance in the signal generator was fine. The gap between signal rotor and pickup coil was huge, like .250" instead of .008". I loosened the two screws to fix it by moving the pickup coil closer.
The problem was that, unlike the picture below, the rotor was not lined up to the coil at a 90 deg angle. It is at more of a 45. This makes accurate measurement impossible. Does this indicate a problem with the distributor install? Should it be at a 90 like in the pic? I got it as close as I could, and put it back together.
Still no luck. I cleaned off the 2 grounds I was using and still nothing. I then checked the battery ground, it was looser than I would like, but still nothing after that. I am using a timing light to check spark. Here are my next steps:
1. Replace all plugs and wires. (I had to do one wire already because I yanked it off poorly). While I am doing that I might as well do a compression test since I have never heard this thing run.
2. Recharge battery
3. Switch to the stock toyota coil instead of the gm one. The toyota one checked out fine and is new.
4. Check the ignition switch via the connector in the steering column just to make sure there is continuity where there is supposed to be. 1985 trucks did not have a relay from the factory.
5. Consider a new distributor or reinstalling the old one at TDC?
Again, I am open to any thoughts and suggestions. Thanks.
post a picture of this, off angle coil, it's not making sense for me. It will give a clearer indicator of what is going on in there. And five something to compare against.
Indicates a problem, yes.
90°, yes.
the coil should fire regardless of the distributor relation to cam and crank position, so no reinstalling the distributor at a confirmed top dead center will not effect if the coil fires or not only if it fires at the right time.
I'm not fully following the thread at this point just answering direct questions.
Here is an image, with the FSM diagram on the right (signal rotor straight up and down) and a crude MS Paint drawing of how mine is at rest on the left. The signal rotor, when stopped, is not lined up over the pickup coil.
Today I did double check some grounds, and the battery cables, all OK. I also checked the ignition switch wiring per the FSM to make sure that was working, and it was OK. I additionally put the multi-meter on the +12V terminal that feeds the igniter when the key is on and cranking. Key on 12V, cranking 10V. Not sure if that is relevant.
Here is an image, with the FSM diagram on the right (signal rotor straight up and down) and a crude MS Paint drawing of how mine is at rest on the left. The signal rotor, when stopped, is not lined up over the pickup coil.
Today I did double check some grounds, and the battery cables, all OK. I also checked the ignition switch wiring per the FSM to make sure that was working, and it was OK. I additionally put the multi-meter on the +12V terminal that feeds the igniter when the key is on and cranking. Key on 12V, cranking 10V. Not sure if that is relevant.
That works, sort of doesn't tell us if the pickup coil is mounted correctly but let's assume so.
You'll need to rotate the engine via the crankshaft bolt to line it up the rotor flat and coil should be parallel. Then you can adjust the gap between 8 and 12 thousandths.
I am having issues with my digital copies of the FSM for an 85, one doesn't have the 22r schematics and the other doesn't load anything after about page 800.
The dry cell test simulates the signal from the distributor pickup. The clicking you hear is either the coil firing, a loose connection arcing, or bad news like the ignitor failing (arcing internally).
Please retest the resistance of the NE signal coil (signal generator,Page IG-9 step #2, 140-180 ohms.), take two tests one normal, the second while smacking/tapping along the pickup assembly and the coil housing. The first verifies it's intact and per spec
The second verifies there are no loose or broken connections internally. You should see no change in the resistance, ideally this test is done with an analog meter because the digital type might not respond fast enough. Any change from the first test indicates a bad pickup, so make very certain it's not your meter leads moving (use aligtor clips or fashion a matching plug.)
I would recommend testing it with a light, but I'm not certain of its current carrying capacity.
You can run a third check at the ignitor to also make sure the connector is firm and clean, and no bad wires along the way interrupting the signal. You'll have to jiggle the wires and tap on connections between the two (dizzy and ignitor)
This signal must be stable or the coil will not fire the required for times per engine revolution..
Please retest the resistance of the NE signal coil (signal generator,Page IG-9 step #2, 140-180 ohms.), take two tests one normal, the second while smacking/tapping along the pickup assembly and the coil housing. The first verifies it's intact and per spec
The second verifies there are no loose or broken connections internally. You should see no change in the resistance, ideally this test is done with an analog meter because the digital type might not respond fast enough. Any change from the first test indicates a bad pickup, so make very certain it's not your meter leads moving (use aligtor clips or fashion a matching plug.)
I would recommend testing it with a light, but I'm not certain of its current carrying capacity.
You can run a third check at the ignitor to also make sure the connector is firm and clean, and no bad wires along the way interrupting the signal. You'll have to jiggle the wires and tap on connections between the two (dizzy and ignitor)
This signal must be stable or the coil will not fire the required for times per engine revolution..
I rotated the engine by hand then set the air gap to 10 thousandths.
I retested the pickup resistance again. It was 156 Ohms, and when I tapped the pickup, it moved around from 154 to 160. The leads were solidly connected, and the meter is digital.
That's seems perfect, just be aware of the sample rate of a digital multimeter can effect those sort of tests so if it turns out to later show a fault that would be why.
I'm not sure RAD4Runner is watching this thread but I'll ask anyway, hey dad this is (should be) a simple Hal effect pickup isn't it? That would show a low voltage swing during cranking, is something we can test at the ignitor plug?
Abe, also check the wire resistance between the distributor pickup and the ignitor if you haven't yet. Did you get a more reliable spark with the adjustment, on either the Toyota or GM ignitors? I know you said you had intermittent spark on the GM, do you still have zero spark from the OEM? And finally which one do your prefer to use so we can maybe concentrate further testing?
I only got an intermittent spark on the timing gun with the GM stuff. I think I will start holding an spark plug to a ground to visually get if I am getting spark.
I would prefer Toyota parts, but it is not a deal breaker. I have the GM stuff hooked up now, so if there was a reliable spark in the future, I was going to switch the Toyota Coil and Igniter in one at a time to see if they were operable.
I am going out of town for a week for work but will start working on it again when I get back. Thanks again for your info and help.
Thank you all for your help and suggestions, especially Co_94_PU. Today I put in the new Toyota igniter I tried a couple weeks ago and the "new" Toyota style coil from the kid I purchased the truck from. No start.
I then replaced all of the spark plugs (from Autolite to NGK) and wires while doing a compression test on each cylinder. F to R 80-80-72-50. Boooo. Oh well.
After the compression test I put the gas to the floor while starting and fired. It coughed and bucked for a bit then settled down. Ran fine, all things considered. Now I have to fix the brakes and add a muffler, but I have spark.
I cannot trace it down to one cause, since it could have been the distributor air gap, plug wires, the igniter being intermittent, I wish I could pin down one thing. Thanks again!
a compression test on each cylinder. F to R 80-80-72-50. Boooo. Oh well.
After the compression test I put the gas to the floor while starting and fired. It coughed and bucked for a bit then settled down. Ran fine, all things considered.
Just curious, have you done a compression test with the engine warm/hot?
This is a farm truck isn't it? Soak the crud off the rings and maybe they will free up some. Four does kind of look broken from here, might be valve leaks those you can check pretty easy.
Just curious, have you done a compression test with the engine warm/hot?
I have not. There is a bit of work to be done to get the brakes working correctly, so I have not really driven it more than my initial around the block test drive. When it is warm, it sounds like it is running well.
This is a farm truck isn't it? Soak the crud off the rings and maybe they will free up some. Four does kind of look broken from here, might be valve leaks those you can check pretty easy.
This truck will be used to gather firewood, so basically just a work truck. I will check the valves to see if they are in spec.
01-25-2017, 03:23 PM
