igotit

found a great link with valuable performance info,block/head differences....ect.
hp numbers,boost the 22r can handle....gotta read it!

http://www.toysport.com/technical%20...tech_notes.htm

Mr_Random

After all that talk of future stuff, I have some relevant tech questions:

What CAN'T I block off on the 20r head? Other than obvious exhaust/intake manifold locations, are there any water ports that are required for normal engine operation?

Also, will the t-stat housing from the 22r bolt to the 20r intake?

Thanks

live4soccer7

I'm not completely sure on the waters, but I think that the t-stats may be different. I could be wrong. I just can't remember and would like to know as well.

Mr_Random

Good info from the source! engnbldr speaks:

>>>*Lots of information in this post, if I may, here are a few clarifications:

You can't bolt the 20R head on a late 22R short deck block without milling the bejeebus out of it. (Chain won't fit)..We won't do it, it seriously weakens the casting, suddenly head gaskets become "MY" head gaskets again....

So this combination is most popular using the 20R head with the early 22R tall deck block.

On compression, there is no real difference from using a stock 22R early head, combustion chambers are roughly the same, 81-83cc or so.. So they won't ping unless something else is wrong.

Now remember that the 20R head has tiny round ports and smaller valves. *Still, I hear the often repeated claim that it will outflow the 22R head.

K...It doesn't....*Bit like tying a rope around a horse's neck to make him run faster...But I keep hearing that, along with claims of 200+ horsepower to the rear wheels...*Bout the same my 11.96 second 1/4 mile Corvette made back in the good old days..

What it DOES do is run differently. The small port, (now we are assuming no mods here but there are folks out there that are magic with a die grinder..)

*Anyways..the small port develops velocity sooner, the driver feels that. Nice snappy response at low end, always a fun feel with a daily driver..Then: The 22R head has a Vortex, or swirl ledge under the intake valve, in the port. That works well to give nice throttle response, but kinda gets smack in the way when one wants to twist the dickens out of the rpm band.

It simply acts as a wall at higher RPM, so the tiny little 20R port gives nice low end response and will actually wind higher.

So: Put some bigger valves in the 20R head, open the intake ports into a nice tunnel shape (flatten and widen the floor, *yep, gotta fix the intake, too....Don't get carried away, sensitive...) Bit of short side radius work, little nick in the intake runner wall tricks a couple of CFM in there..there is a tiny dead air spot that this helps, All this does is expose more fuel droplets that fall out of suspension to the airstream, remember the engine runs on fuel, not air, and air is easy to move. Fuel can get problematic quickly, which is why I quit paying attention to flow benches and airflow numbers years ago..

Nice for comparisons, I use results on the track for that..still, a flow bench can find those dead air spots, and that is an asset.

*K..I am nuts, but I have a LOT of trophies on my walls...and 43 years to back it all up..*LOL**..so at MY age, even if I am wrong, I get to be right..

Now the 20R head will not only offer that sweet early rpm throttle response, but it will also make power equal to the 22R head, or close, perhaps better if the work is right. AND nice top end, too.

Sweet...

Compression DOES NOT CHANGE from what the 22R head/22R block delivers, you can write that down and take bets on it...

The engine just runs differently, and properly set up, is fun....Hope this helps...*EB

xxxtreme22r

Just to show you what EB was talking about with the head differences. Regarding the chamber and valve sizes.

YotaBoy83

I have a 22r/20r built in my truck and is getting horrible power. I have come to the conclusion the rings are shot so I will be rebuilding the entire bottom end but the 20r head was rebuilt not too long ago by the PO and All I was going to do to it was a port and polish job as I do not have the time and money to get bigger valves. But the block will be bored not sure how much at this point and I will also be putting a new cam in. I was thinking of the lce street performer or just performer cam.

The few questions I have are what kinda problems will I run into? Will the valves contact the pistons and I was told that as long as the block is not decked more than .012 I should not need an adjustable can gear.

I was also thinking if it is decked should I just run the thicker head gasket that lce sells so make up some of the difference.

Any and all help would be appreciated oh and I do have a almost new double row timing chain that I will be reusing.

I do not have a lot of money to spend and want to keep this build simple. I am doing the port and polish myself or have a buddy of mine do it.

YotaBoy83

http://www.lceperformance.com/Camsha...-p/1022054.htm
I was thinking either this cam
http://www.lceperformance.com/Camsha...-p/1022033.htm
Or this one. I am just unsure.
I just don't want the valves to contact the pistons and to loose power.

JonnyBoy

Ok, so this is the first time I'd seen all that info EB gave. So assuming you have a 22r head and 20r head, which is cheaper to make better? I'm having a hard time imagining this "swirl ledge" and whether it can be machined out, or if I'd even want to.

xxxtreme22r

Cheaper too just run the 22r head IMO. In order to get full benefit of the hybrid motor, oversized valves and porting are needed. Without that, you just up the compression, which will be extremely hard to get tuned right.

YotaBoy83

I did a compression check today I only had time for the number 1 cylinder I did forget to to have the throttle wide open but when I did it the cylinder cam out with 120 I then squirted oil in the cylinder and it brought the compression up to about 140 -150

This is the biggest problem

Actually the motor was tuned very well is idled smooth other than the low compression which also resulted in low power. And I really don't have the money to get another 22r head and rebuild it. The only 22r head I have is from an 86 and will not work so I will just have to live with this set up along with weber carb, strong ignition and free flowing exhaust. But I just want everything to work for now I might in the future put a 22r head back on this. I'm only 17 it will be good for me for now.

xxxtreme22r

Rings are shot. Time for full rebuild. 120 is way low and the fact it jumps to 140-150 with adding oil, tells me rings aren't sealing. And even 150 is low.

YotaBoy83

Yeah I planned on doing one in the spring. I was always wondering why my truck was so slow. Now I know it will bet a whole new honed and bored bottom end with new pistons and rings. The head was rebuilt not too long ago and will just get a slight port and polish with stock valves and just cleaned up.

Mr_Random

Definitely worth it to just keep the 20r head and clean up the block. If/when you polish the head, remember no more than 80grit for the intake runners, but the exhaust and bowls can be made as smooth/shiny as possible. Also, rounding the lip on the BOTTOM of the intake runners as they dip into the valve seat is what engnbldr is talking about on decreasing fuel drop-out. Tunnel shaped intake runners are nice, but risky and better left to pro's.
About machining out the swirl ledge on 22r head; i've read it is mostly impossible witbout a special casting. I'll have to post pics of the differences between heads.

Due to some massive leaking coming from the old engine and job problems, I hastened the build and cut down on costs. Pulled the running engine to find the head was improperly torqued and/or it warped and was basically never seated to the head gasket. Block was recently rebuilt with .020 oversized pistons, so i am doing a bearing/wrist pin replacement and ring job, cleaning it up, and slapping on the dual row chain, polished 20r head with stock valves. Gonna purchase a used nwor header, should go nice with the offy and weber. Electric fuel pump, rte clutch and flywheel, and it should be back together for under $1300. Two weeks and i'll post results.

stonedgnome07

I just put a 20r/22r hybrid in my truck and it runs great but I'm having a spark issue now either my coilor my distributer not sure but other than that issue I would suggest this project great end product just don't half ass it or it can be bad

junkyardog05

I know some 20R heads come with the mech. fuel pump and power steering bolt holes. Does anyone what year heads came with that or if the even have the bosses for it?

FIRTH4X4

The 20R truck engines I have seen all have had mechanical fuel pump. Have seen some with pwr steering and some without. Mine is factory no power steering, but the threads are there if you want it.

stonedgnome07

Did this build go well and if it did would you happen to have any advice on buildup of the hybrid engine and the needed components to do so like aluminum rocker assembly, titanium valves and springs was any machine shop work done? What cam should I be running and what about the ignition system is that a strong enough system to run the hybrid? Anything would help thanks

Mr_Random

The cost of and time to completion for this build was more than a deal I found on a newly rebuilt 22re with most of the stuff needed to make it fuel injection, and it came with a header and exhaust! Ha so basically I sold off the head and intake to the same person, then some other minor parts, bought that engine, and rebuilt a fuel injection harness for it (megasquirt will come before long).

As for the hybrid, I still have various parts, but I can ask the guy who grabbed most of mine up how his hybrid is going! It had similar plans to mine...

On my end, I had a mess of wiring to do, but now my truck is running reliably (cross fingers). The engine was built by a dude who used it as his final project in performance engine machine school, so even without turbo it has plenty of power, plus with a megasquirt, the engine will be great to run a small turbo at 89-91 octane.

live4soccer7

Mr_Random, sounds like you have a pretty good setup going. When do you plan on getting the MS installed?