live4soccer7

I wouldn't say that I'm an expert by any means, but I really like things to be running the best they can and so after getting the hybrid I really found out a ton about it by reading online and talking with people. There are a lot of things that aren't true about them that you will hear online. I think one of the major things on the 22 series motors are restrictions in airflow. A port and polish and all that is possible will help a lot. Same with larger valves and a cam. If you are going to be using anything past a stage one cam you will probably have to upgrade valve train and if you do that you may have to have notched pistons. Just be sure to make sure what you want before you build it b/c afterwards it will be a lot of work to change those major things.

I didn't do port/polish on mine b/c I haven't had to pull the head, but there is a good chance I may have to soon (don't really want to explain why, LC engineering's fault) and if I do you can guarantee I will be porting and polishing it.

Check this link toward the bottom. It is toysport, i had a typo in the last post

http://www.toysport.com/technical%20...tech_notes.htm

yeehaw1

You know your stuff, i have considered the port/polish, but don't know how the priceing runs on them, i'm just breaking into the performance part of these motors, and I like to do things right the first time lol... all this info is greatly appreciated!!

I understand not wanting to discuss the head pulling, some things are better left of the internet IMHO. Honestly if most places didn't require it now, i wouldn't even fill out an application online.

live4soccer7

Definitely port and polish. You can actually do it yourself (haven't done it yet, but will if/when I do). I don't think it would be that much to get it done and i believe the benefits would be good especially if you already are rebuilding the motor. In that link I sent you they state that the flow in the head can be increased up to 200% by doing the things I have mentioned. It all comes down to how much $$ you want to spend though. Port and polish is relatively cheap, over sized valves, a mild cam and a set of headers is what I would do for a economical build that you will see some difference in. Keep in mind though that no matter what these won't really be "powerful", but they can be made better.

yeehaw1

If i can do it myself, i'll probably do it, i hate having to pay others to do stuff on my truck lol, the only thing that i'm not crazy about is the headers, everybody that i know with headers, is always fighting leakage with them, although none of my buddys actually own toyota's...
I'm actually lookin over that link, i've seen it before, but never had the chance to read it...
I don't need it to be powerful, just have enough power to keep up with traffic/go up a hill/make it through mud up to my doors .

live4soccer7

I have tri-y doug thorley headers. Don't think Id go any other way and haven't had any issues.

abeD85flatbed

I ran a hybrid for years, it was a great engine, tons of torque. Twisted the splines on a stock V6 rear axle shaft running 5.29s 37" and a detroit. It was hard not breaking the tires loose, even on dry pavement. It was however, still not happy when loaded down with gear and everything else. It was as mechanically reliable as the stock 22r ever was, electric fuel pump was a turd though.
It still wasn't enough for the mountain passes in Utah, and I pulled it for a Buick V6.

live4soccer7

I'd have to agree with you on the 20/22r setup on pretty much everything you said. Great setup, but just I'd only do it if you don't have the money/time to do a v6/v8 swap.

How is that buick v6? What kinda specs does it have? Have an engine code? Is is an aluminum block? Sorry for all the questions, but am always researching the perfect swap for one of these things. My truck is going to be getting pretty heavy soon and will need a new power plant within the next couple years cause I'm gonna wanna burn the 22r b/c it is so underpowered.

abeD85flatbed

I only have about 60 miles on it since it went in, and so far it's great. Of course more work than you would think, but what engine sap isn't. It fits nicely without a body lift which is why I went with the Buick V6 in the first place rather than the 4.3, I really just didn't want to lift it anymore. Plus then the headache rack on the flat bed wouldn't have followed the body contour and been too short, and I would have had to extend the frame mounts for the cage.

The motor is a cast iron job, I know I know, out of an older skylark. still runs the flat tappet cam. I had the whole thing rebuilt, new pistons, bearings, bored .030 over. It's running a cam from comp cams, as well as their timing set, lifters, pushrods, and valve springs. The intake is edelbrock and so is the carb. It really should be too much carb for the motor, 500 CFM, but she seems to run alright. I figure i will get it broken in and run it for a year or too and then go to throttle body.
I used all the advance adapter stuff to mate it up to my W56 and the '85 frame. Their headers actually clear nicely.
The distributor up and died the other day for no apparent reason, and now I'm waiting for summit to process the warranty so I can get it back on the road. When I have had it out, it's not so much making sure your getting the most out of every gear like it was with the 20R hybrid, my truck is heavy , its more enjoying being able to give it a little gas and having that huge surge of power from the bigger engine. Should have done the swap years ago.

live4soccer7

edit: wrong thread....

Mr_Random

Really glad I found this thread... I've been searching for answers about the hybrid, and I hope to expand upon the knowledge here soon with some pictures too!

I'm about $700 into this build and haven't even gotten any machine work done... that being said, I think the route I'm going with the hybrid is the best I can do without breaking the $2k mark. I'll post my (prospective) build details if anyone wants, stumbled upon this thread a little late and need to sleep soon...

Couple questions though; anybody know how difficult TBI would be with this? I have an offy dual-plane intake for the 20r... would that make it even harder? If I decide to push this build to the limits (probably AFTER I get it running with my 32/36), I'd like to figure out how to run a small turbo on it with TBI. Then again, aside from *weird* value, going that deep would not be worth as much as just doing a (toyota family) V8 swap...

live4soccer7

I have the hybrid and it is better, but still nothing astonishing. I would continue with your hybrid build and just get it running as best as possible with a hybrid economy build and then save up or research for a swap for the future. That is what I'm doing and I think it is the best way to go if you don't have efi, need a new engine anyways, and can get the parts for a decent price. Just my opinion. A high $$ build on one is a waste in my opinion unless you are racing or something and have to have an r series engine in the truck. The 22rte's can output quite a bit of power, but then you will lose a lot of reliability as well. I've done a lot of reading and research on it all. Still lots I don't know and lots to learn, but this is what I've come up with.

xxxtreme22r

your not gonna get the 20r intake fuel injected (TBI or otherwise) and not break your 2k budget as there is nothing aftermarket you can add, everything will need to be custom. Unless there is some sort of kit that is either weber or holley 2bbl flanged that bolts on using an adapter meant for the weber or holey conversion that I don't know about. But even then a stand alone ECU etc etc is still gonna run big $$$ for a quality/reliable kit.

I had a 77 Celica GT with the 20r and for the life of me I cannot remember if that thing was card'd, TBI or EFI. All I remember is that thing had an electric fuel pump in the tank.

You can't go wrong with that offy intake though.

This is the first time I think I have seen someone mention it's not worth that kinda money without doing a swap unless your need the 4cyl. Thanks live4soccer7. Being a local mud bog guy here, I'd rather stick with the 4cyl's and not have to go v8 street or modified.

live4soccer7

I think that is a compliment? Not sure how to take that comment. ha ha...

xxxtreme22r

yup yup it is. Most people will just say, it cheaper/easier just to slap a 3.4 or SBC in it. Still researching the options to run tbi on 20r intake "cheaply". I have an idea but not sure exactly how expensive it would be to run it.

Mr_Random

I was thinking the same thing though... 'round here we have sand drags and dune races, it would be easier to run a heavily modified 22r in a "stock" class than a v8 in the modified class. I mean, there are guys around here with supercharged 600ci fords, there's no way that any engine in my toy (without changing the entire drivetrain) would ever compete with that!

I've read about taking old GM TBI, from the 4.3 and such, and modifying that to work (on 22r's, old jeep 4.2's, all kinds of old engines). Holley, I believe, makes a 2bbl-style Throttle body for those things that would adapt to my manifold, after that it's all sensor placement, building a harness (which I am capable of), and getting a computer...

Oh and the "$2k" would be for getting my carb'd engine to run, all this other talk is on top of that initial budget.

hate to link to pirate... but;


my god!

Yet one more quote from pirate;

"We put one one a 22/20R hybrid motor last year. It was made by a place called Affordable fuel injection, IIRC. Turned out pretty cool except for the ˟˟˟˟in 2' long distributor.

They guys name is Garrett, his sign on here is deang. "

live4soccer7

Interesting!!! We need more info on this setup!!

Mr_Random

Well... first off, I'll post up the majority of my engine specs, then go on to detail my full plan.

20r head; bought if off a guy with eb272 cam installed (discontinued), dual valve springs, but stock valves! Has mounts for p/s and fuel pump.

With the head I got; MLS head gasket, offy dual-plane intake, dual-row timing chain kit, water pump, oil pump, stock-sized pistons, stock-sized bearings, lce crank scraper.

In addition, I have an 83 block that needs some clean-up, and a good crank that came with it. Lost my con-rods and bearing caps in a move though... Finally, I have the 22r currently in my 84, which I will pull valve cover, exhaust mani, tc cover, oil pan, bearing caps,oil pickup, and con-rods from.

I need to source the oil pump drive spline for the dual-row tc, I'll dig around the junkyards before I pony up and buy that from lce. I need coolant block-off plates for the offy and head, and fuel pump block-off. After all that, I'll buy a complete engine gasket kit from engbldr, 20r OS valves, OS pistons (looks like the ones I got with the head are for the laser block anyways; flat tops), and crank bearings. Oh yeah, and anything ARP I can get for the engine...

Machine block, crank, and head, etc. etc... all that I should be able to do with the remaining $1300 I am willing to spend.

With those details out of the way; I just remembered there is a stock chevy 350 TBI unit sitting in the garage, then I need a megasquirt and all the sensors/fuel pump/adapters, and to build a harness!

I can source from any of the thousands of ricers in this town a good t3/t4 garrett, ct-26, or any similar turbo worth rebuilding, and probably find plenty of options for intercoolers, piping, bov, etc. Then it'll be about welding up a turbo exhaust manifold and buying a wideband o2 for the MS.

It'll be a franken-yota, but if I can get all the parts quick enough, I'll have a running (carbureted, already have working 32/36) engine within two months, TBI by the end of the year, and turbo by march next year. I'm being optimistic... but it's fun!

Thinking about it... that 350 tbi will be a bit much without a turbo... I think I'll plan on just doing those at the same time...

Great tech link, from ih8mud;
http://forum.ih8mud.com/79-95-toyota...ction-tbi.html

xxxtreme22r

If you go MLS for the headgasket, make sure the machine shop that will surface the block and head know this, it takes a special machining to use them. It's almost a mirrorlike finish on both the head and block surfaces. What the actual name of it is I forget though. Not many machine shops can do it. At least not out here.

igotit

please post up a build thread when you get started.....if there isnt one already.
whats the bore to stroke ratio on the 22r engines pre 84?
that will give you a good idea of what kinda results to expect from a turbo 22r.
i know22r turbo existed,i had a 86 or 87 22r turbo 4x4 years back.

Mr_Random

Thank you so much for that info! I've been wondering if I needed something special for the MLS... We have some shops down here that build the engines for the Baja 500/1000, etc. race teams, so I hope they are equipped for such a task...

As for the bore/stroke of early 22r's... it's the same as late, only difference is deck height/head height and that they used domed pistons. I'm pretty sure the 20r head bumps cr up to just at 10.5:1, definitely not ideal for turbo... which may mean the need to install late-model pistons before turbocharging the engine. I think I figured out a while ago that stock flat-top late-models would drop an early block's CR to around 8.5:1, possibly lower... which is ideal for 10-15psi of boost. From what I've read, stock internals for the 22r can handle 10-15psi without compromising reliability... the mls/arp studs should address the one problem of BHG. Also, the 20r head should be better for the turbo than 22r heads (straight shot into CC, round ports).

Additional thought; would flat tops in the early block possibly make it a non-interference engine????