a little bit of shock trig
05-29-2006, 11:53 AM
#1
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a little bit of shock trig
LOOK AT END OF THREAD FOR NEW ?
im needing a little more travel, + my boredom and want to make stuff so i was thinking about playing with my rear shocks on my tacoma.
since a lot of people us a triangle long travel shock setup in the rear i was hoping to duplicate this while retaining my bilstein 5125's.
they would be vertically mounted to a support bar between the frame as usual, and the lower mounts would be moved on top of the axle housing in order to get a u-bolt flip done.
i would basically set it up so i got half of the gained distance for droop and the other half of compression.
i wont have to shoot the shocks up into the bed either, and the spare wont be in the way.
only problem i forsee is the prop valve which i can move a bit to obtain this.
OR
could i even move the shocks inboard 6-8" and tie the lower mounts into the axles strengthening that i will be doing?
anyone have any good design ideas for my little project?
a combination of mig, tig, and stick will be used to accomplish this task, and the tabs for all mounting points would be 1/4 or so low carbon steel.
thanks for the input.
-derek
im needing a little more travel, + my boredom and want to make stuff so i was thinking about playing with my rear shocks on my tacoma.
since a lot of people us a triangle long travel shock setup in the rear i was hoping to duplicate this while retaining my bilstein 5125's.
they would be vertically mounted to a support bar between the frame as usual, and the lower mounts would be moved on top of the axle housing in order to get a u-bolt flip done.
i would basically set it up so i got half of the gained distance for droop and the other half of compression.
i wont have to shoot the shocks up into the bed either, and the spare wont be in the way.
only problem i forsee is the prop valve which i can move a bit to obtain this.
OR
could i even move the shocks inboard 6-8" and tie the lower mounts into the axles strengthening that i will be doing?
anyone have any good design ideas for my little project?
a combination of mig, tig, and stick will be used to accomplish this task, and the tabs for all mounting points would be 1/4 or so low carbon steel.
thanks for the input.
-derek
Last edited by dfoxengr; 12-09-2006 at 01:29 PM.
05-30-2006, 09:01 PM
#3
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I'm not sure you are going to get a satisfactory answer here.
This seems like it's a cool project, and a fun way to fabricate, but i don't think it will gain you much at all, other than the ubolt/shock flip.
Something to consider about moving the shocks inward...I don't know much about suspension geometry, but i do know physics, and the longer the lever, the more torque you can apply to something. If you move the spring inwards, you are going increase the amount of force on that shock, and decrease its dampning ability. If you do that, your ride will suffer.
Think about attaching that shock to the upper mount and pushing on the bottom to depress it. Then think about putting a long pole through the bottom of the shock, putting one end on the ground, and pushing 8 inches from the base of the shock on the opposite side. It will be easier.
This isn't going to be something very many, if any, people have done. When you do custom fab stuff, you usually get stuck working out all the bugs yourself.
Personally, i would tig the whole thing. You seem to be a pro welder, so i won't argue the specifics, but it seems to be that stick is great if you need down and dirty, but tig is going to give you good strong welds, and look damn good.
Take the bed off, take off the axle, do it right, and present us with a bit of a write up.
This seems like it's a cool project, and a fun way to fabricate, but i don't think it will gain you much at all, other than the ubolt/shock flip.
Something to consider about moving the shocks inward...I don't know much about suspension geometry, but i do know physics, and the longer the lever, the more torque you can apply to something. If you move the spring inwards, you are going increase the amount of force on that shock, and decrease its dampning ability. If you do that, your ride will suffer.
Think about attaching that shock to the upper mount and pushing on the bottom to depress it. Then think about putting a long pole through the bottom of the shock, putting one end on the ground, and pushing 8 inches from the base of the shock on the opposite side. It will be easier.
This isn't going to be something very many, if any, people have done. When you do custom fab stuff, you usually get stuck working out all the bugs yourself.
Personally, i would tig the whole thing. You seem to be a pro welder, so i won't argue the specifics, but it seems to be that stick is great if you need down and dirty, but tig is going to give you good strong welds, and look damn good.
Take the bed off, take off the axle, do it right, and present us with a bit of a write up.
05-31-2006, 03:22 AM
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yeah im an ME so i understand the forces working here.
displacement ratio is the inverse of the force ratio.
so if your shock is mounted half way between the centerline of the exle and the wheel contact surface your displacement ratio is 1:2 (shock:tire), therefore the forces are such that the force ratio is 2:1 (shock:tire)
also wider track width does this same thing to your stock suspension setup. spacer or wheel backspacing that take the wheel out farter increases load on the suspension too.
the extra travel will be negligable at best being about a half inch (guess w/out my calculator)
main reason im wanting this is because my upper shock mounts on the frame are pretty rusty, plus i want the lower mount away from the lower part of the axle.
tig will be used for most stuff, but crossmember to frame will probably be stick.
stick is no weaker than tig when done right. tig is just more precision.
displacement ratio is the inverse of the force ratio.
so if your shock is mounted half way between the centerline of the exle and the wheel contact surface your displacement ratio is 1:2 (shock:tire), therefore the forces are such that the force ratio is 2:1 (shock:tire)
also wider track width does this same thing to your stock suspension setup. spacer or wheel backspacing that take the wheel out farter increases load on the suspension too.
the extra travel will be negligable at best being about a half inch (guess w/out my calculator)
main reason im wanting this is because my upper shock mounts on the frame are pretty rusty, plus i want the lower mount away from the lower part of the axle.
tig will be used for most stuff, but crossmember to frame will probably be stick.
stick is no weaker than tig when done right. tig is just more precision.
05-31-2006, 07:24 AM
#5
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Not trying to be offensive, didn't realize that you have the background that you do.
Oh, i was just saying that tig would be cleaner, not stronger. If done properly, both will yeild great welds.
I think that it is a good idea, i would just keep the shocks out as far as you can. Either fab or buy lower shock mounts to weld to the top of the housing, and weld in the xmemeber, bolt em up, and your are on your way.
You also said that your xtra travel would be negligable. I would hope that your springs are limiting your travel, and not the shocks, or the shocks are going to wear out quickly.
Oh, i was just saying that tig would be cleaner, not stronger. If done properly, both will yeild great welds.
I think that it is a good idea, i would just keep the shocks out as far as you can. Either fab or buy lower shock mounts to weld to the top of the housing, and weld in the xmemeber, bolt em up, and your are on your way.
You also said that your xtra travel would be negligable. I would hope that your springs are limiting your travel, and not the shocks, or the shocks are going to wear out quickly.
05-31-2006, 10:44 AM
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the unit will be all tigged except for attaching to the frame. its easier that way and my stick looks pretty decent(comparable to robotic mig in looks)
im probably going to have 2 upper members with the mount tabs between them. the tabs will hold the shock in double shear, and also have welding on 2 of the 4 sides(hence need for 2 members) instead of only 1 side.
shocks will probably have limit straps on them as well so they dont wear out.
ill just have to carry a wheel if they do droop.
im probably going to have 2 upper members with the mount tabs between them. the tabs will hold the shock in double shear, and also have welding on 2 of the 4 sides(hence need for 2 members) instead of only 1 side.
shocks will probably have limit straps on them as well so they dont wear out.
ill just have to carry a wheel if they do droop.
06-02-2006, 11:24 PM
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derek, i've thought for a while about mounting my shocks angled in at the top and if you dont get to this during the summer, it might be a fun project to work on in the fall when we aren't stuck in the ware lab building our baja racer, later on man.
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06-07-2006, 06:48 PM
#9
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Body roll on trucks like that is almost undrivable IMHO with long soft springs and good shocks.
The relevant trig is that shocks lose half the dampening at 45 degree angles. Sure you can get more droop, but if you can weld, why not put the mounts in a place where you have the longest nearly vertical location and as much droop as possible?
The relevant trig is that shocks lose half the dampening at 45 degree angles. Sure you can get more droop, but if you can weld, why not put the mounts in a place where you have the longest nearly vertical location and as much droop as possible?
12-09-2006, 01:28 PM
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another question now:
does moving the shocks more toward the center affect anything besides loads changed by moments?
im thinking no, and that you could get more travel on one wheel at a time by doing this.
?
does moving the shocks more toward the center affect anything besides loads changed by moments?
im thinking no, and that you could get more travel on one wheel at a time by doing this.
?
12-09-2006, 08:04 PM
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I think that's correct. Like you said, because of the change in moments acting on the axle/shocks, you'll get effectively less damping when only 1 wheel is affected or when both wheels are affected in opposite directions. For example going around corners, side hilling, etc.
12-11-2006, 02:47 PM
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If you just want to get your shocks up further then it's pretty straightforward. Raise the top and equal distance and be done. If you want to get more travel out of them you can inboard them to achieve this at the expense of damping which you seem to understand.
What I'm concerned about is the second paragraph here where you seem to misunderstand the issues involved.
In on-road driving with all 4 tires on the ground the axle width is irrelevant. You're thinking of the axle as a lever working the shocks against a static body (the frame) but what you're actually working with is the frame being dampened by the shocks against a static body in the axle.
It all depends on what you have for a setup on your rig and what you can deal with. If you have big long soft springs on a DD you should keep the shocks outboarded and vertical to get max damping. If it's a trail rig like mine that just has to be driven to the trail then go for articulation by inboarding them if they are bottoming out now. Mine body rolls like a pig but I don't really care as I only drive it to and from trails and I'm not in that big of a hurry.
What I'm concerned about is the second paragraph here where you seem to misunderstand the issues involved.
yeah im an ME so i understand the forces working here.
displacement ratio is the inverse of the force ratio.
so if your shock is mounted half way between the centerline of the exle and the wheel contact surface your displacement ratio is 1:2 (shock:tire), therefore the forces are such that the force ratio is 2:1 (shock:tire)
also wider track width does this same thing to your stock suspension setup. spacer or wheel backspacing that take the wheel out farter increases load on the suspension too.
displacement ratio is the inverse of the force ratio.
so if your shock is mounted half way between the centerline of the exle and the wheel contact surface your displacement ratio is 1:2 (shock:tire), therefore the forces are such that the force ratio is 2:1 (shock:tire)
also wider track width does this same thing to your stock suspension setup. spacer or wheel backspacing that take the wheel out farter increases load on the suspension too.
It all depends on what you have for a setup on your rig and what you can deal with. If you have big long soft springs on a DD you should keep the shocks outboarded and vertical to get max damping. If it's a trail rig like mine that just has to be driven to the trail then go for articulation by inboarding them if they are bottoming out now. Mine body rolls like a pig but I don't really care as I only drive it to and from trails and I'm not in that big of a hurry.
12-12-2006, 04:31 PM
#14
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Also bear in mind that the dv/dx of the shock shaft speed may be very different than the existing shock location.
Dont forget to take into effect that while the initial modeling can be done in 2D. the suspension does have som 3D travel effects.
tho Im not sure I understand how you are planning to mount them - its sounded like you were going to mount the top of the shock in towards the CENTER of the truck (aka over the diff) and leave the other end of the shock over by the wheel.
Like this pic in BudBuilt.com
http://www.budbuilt.com/P5140022_small1.jpg
Also on a note about the OEM shock mounting where one shock leans toward the front and the other leans toward the rear.... thats done for a VERY good reason - it eliminates axle tramp (and its "free" to do as the OEM has to mount a shock somewhere)
IMHO keeping the current shocks is penny wise and pound foolish.
The trick way to go is
CANTELEVER
http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29216
Dont forget to take into effect that while the initial modeling can be done in 2D. the suspension does have som 3D travel effects.
tho Im not sure I understand how you are planning to mount them - its sounded like you were going to mount the top of the shock in towards the CENTER of the truck (aka over the diff) and leave the other end of the shock over by the wheel.
Like this pic in BudBuilt.com
http://www.budbuilt.com/P5140022_small1.jpg
Also on a note about the OEM shock mounting where one shock leans toward the front and the other leans toward the rear.... thats done for a VERY good reason - it eliminates axle tramp (and its "free" to do as the OEM has to mount a shock somewhere)
IMHO keeping the current shocks is penny wise and pound foolish.
The trick way to go is
CANTELEVER
http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29216
12-13-2006, 07:38 AM
#15
Of course, Toyota used to angle the shocks inward on the '83 and earlier trucks. I've run mine that way for many years now:
- http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_suspe...shtml#R-Shocks
Made my last upper mount adjustable and ultimately plan on running dual shocks back there to make up for the loss of damping and for some built-in redundancy. With the adjustablility, I can set the shock angle to nearly use up all the travel of the shock.
- http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_suspe...shtml#R-Shocks
Made my last upper mount adjustable and ultimately plan on running dual shocks back there to make up for the loss of damping and for some built-in redundancy. With the adjustablility, I can set the shock angle to nearly use up all the travel of the shock.
12-21-2006, 05:14 PM
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did the same thing you are talking about.I mounted them at an angle on the frame cross member. They suck on the road. The body roll is ridiculous. Yeah the travel is increased but not worth the handling sacrifices. I will be changing the design as soon as I grow the balls two cut a hole in the bed of my 4runner or find the time to think up something better. Fabbing some brackets that you can weld to the axle tube instead of the top of the axle will buy you a couple inches. Just my 2 cents
12-21-2006, 07:33 PM
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If you just want to get your shocks up further then it's pretty straightforward. Raise the top and equal distance and be done. If you want to get more travel out of them you can inboard them to achieve this at the expense of damping which you seem to understand.
What I'm concerned about is the second paragraph here where you seem to misunderstand the issues involved.
In on-road driving with all 4 tires on the ground the axle width is irrelevant. You're thinking of the axle as a lever working the shocks against a static body (the frame) but what you're actually working with is the frame being dampened by the shocks against a static body in the axle.
It all depends on what you have for a setup on your rig and what you can deal with. If you have big long soft springs on a DD you should keep the shocks outboarded and vertical to get max damping. If it's a trail rig like mine that just has to be driven to the trail then go for articulation by inboarding them if they are bottoming out now. Mine body rolls like a pig but I don't really care as I only drive it to and from trails and I'm not in that big of a hurry.
What I'm concerned about is the second paragraph here where you seem to misunderstand the issues involved.
In on-road driving with all 4 tires on the ground the axle width is irrelevant. You're thinking of the axle as a lever working the shocks against a static body (the frame) but what you're actually working with is the frame being dampened by the shocks against a static body in the axle.
It all depends on what you have for a setup on your rig and what you can deal with. If you have big long soft springs on a DD you should keep the shocks outboarded and vertical to get max damping. If it's a trail rig like mine that just has to be driven to the trail then go for articulation by inboarding them if they are bottoming out now. Mine body rolls like a pig but I don't really care as I only drive it to and from trails and I'm not in that big of a hurry.
what im thinking is maybe a revalve to correct the damping, while putting them inboard, also more N2 pressure will help this for on-road driving, giving a good balance between both worlds...
Last edited by dfoxengr; 12-21-2006 at 07:35 PM.
12-21-2006, 07:39 PM
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Also bear in mind that the dv/dx of the shock shaft speed may be very different than the existing shock location.
Dont forget to take into effect that while the initial modeling can be done in 2D. the suspension does have som 3D travel effects.
tho Im not sure I understand how you are planning to mount them - its sounded like you were going to mount the top of the shock in towards the CENTER of the truck (aka over the diff) and leave the other end of the shock over by the wheel.
Like this pic in BudBuilt.com
http://www.budbuilt.com/P5140022_small1.jpg
Also on a note about the OEM shock mounting where one shock leans toward the front and the other leans toward the rear.... thats done for a VERY good reason - it eliminates axle tramp (and its "free" to do as the OEM has to mount a shock somewhere)
IMHO keeping the current shocks is penny wise and pound foolish.
The trick way to go is
CANTELEVER
http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29216
Dont forget to take into effect that while the initial modeling can be done in 2D. the suspension does have som 3D travel effects.
tho Im not sure I understand how you are planning to mount them - its sounded like you were going to mount the top of the shock in towards the CENTER of the truck (aka over the diff) and leave the other end of the shock over by the wheel.
Like this pic in BudBuilt.com
http://www.budbuilt.com/P5140022_small1.jpg
Also on a note about the OEM shock mounting where one shock leans toward the front and the other leans toward the rear.... thats done for a VERY good reason - it eliminates axle tramp (and its "free" to do as the OEM has to mount a shock somewhere)
IMHO keeping the current shocks is penny wise and pound foolish.
The trick way to go is
CANTELEVER
http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29216
yeah ive seen that canti setup but its a bit over the top, and does the basic same thing.
and no im talking about moving the lower mount inward less than half the distance between the drum and diff, and keeping the shocks vertical.
nothing angled...
-derek
12-21-2006, 07:44 PM
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new idea, how about adding 2 more shocks even more inboard than the first set, somewhat like roger suggested? thatll help a lot huh. i could even bleed the gas pressure when i go offroad, then pump it bach when im done.
-derek
-derek
01-14-2007, 08:11 PM
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over spring break i hope to do the 4 shocks on the rear.
2- 9.5" travel foxes about center between diff and drum, and then my billstein 5125's a bit more inboard than that. this should retain good roll resistance and will give me about 2/3 more travel.
upper crossmember will be bolted in.
i modified my spare to sit it above the frame, and i removed the lspv over winter break so i have tons more room to work with now.
eventually ill be adding longer leafs, and longer, relocated spring shackles.
running stock length 3" lifted alcan pack now
will update as i progress.
2- 9.5" travel foxes about center between diff and drum, and then my billstein 5125's a bit more inboard than that. this should retain good roll resistance and will give me about 2/3 more travel.
upper crossmember will be bolted in.
i modified my spare to sit it above the frame, and i removed the lspv over winter break so i have tons more room to work with now.
eventually ill be adding longer leafs, and longer, relocated spring shackles.
running stock length 3" lifted alcan pack now
will update as i progress.
Last edited by dfoxengr; 01-14-2007 at 08:14 PM.
