why leafs
09-19-2006, 06:30 PM
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why leafs
ok might be a dumb q but i just dont get it
ok i thought a 4 linked coil suspenshion was sick (for the rear) why wouldent you lift that? cause i see allot of people putting leafs in the back during there sas's on 4 runners. thanks
ok i thought a 4 linked coil suspenshion was sick (for the rear) why wouldent you lift that? cause i see allot of people putting leafs in the back during there sas's on 4 runners. thanks
09-19-2006, 07:03 PM
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I agree that it's a great off road suspension, but the work involved as well as the issues with on road driving (super flexy = not too fun on the street without sway bars, etc.) It becomes difficult to justify the reasons for putting it on a DD.
09-19-2006, 07:07 PM
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He is refering to why people replace the rear of their 2nd gen runners. Those, btw, are not a fourlink, they have a panhard.
Anyway, people do leaves to replace the rear, because leaves are easy to make work right, and they perfectly ballence the truck front and rear, as far as suspension travel. This will make them better, and less scary off camber
Anyway, people do leaves to replace the rear, because leaves are easy to make work right, and they perfectly ballence the truck front and rear, as far as suspension travel. This will make them better, and less scary off camber
09-19-2006, 07:21 PM
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Putting the stock stuff far enough in the air usually means you are well past the limits of what it can do without risking big breakage and freaky handling.
Leaves are easier, more predictable on road and off.
Leaves are easier, more predictable on road and off.
09-19-2006, 08:18 PM
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Uhhh!! I have been wanting to know this for a while as well.
So I get it
But for a dedicated off-road rig with no expense harmed (including sweat), springs are waaay better off-road as far as capability, disregarding off-camber stuff?
So I get it
But for a dedicated off-road rig with no expense harmed (including sweat), springs are waaay better off-road as far as capability, disregarding off-camber stuff?
09-19-2006, 08:25 PM
#6
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A well done linked suspension will have no axle wrap, predictable loading on sidehills and adding a swaybar will make it iron out any unloadingg/negative tension issues.
A leaf suspension has axle wrap in degrees, binds under extreme travel and is not tunable like coilovers and links are.
In the rear of trucks, where the power gets put down and the weight gets shifted on climbs, axle wrap, especially with extreme gearing is hard to beat. I went with links/coilovers for this reason. I do not have axle wrap even when I stand on it.
Adding traction bars usually limit travel but do fight axle wrap.
A leaf suspension has axle wrap in degrees, binds under extreme travel and is not tunable like coilovers and links are.
In the rear of trucks, where the power gets put down and the weight gets shifted on climbs, axle wrap, especially with extreme gearing is hard to beat. I went with links/coilovers for this reason. I do not have axle wrap even when I stand on it.
Adding traction bars usually limit travel but do fight axle wrap.
09-19-2006, 08:30 PM
#7
A couple of other items come to mind:
One is with the 2nd gens, when you put leaves on the front (with the SAS) and combine that with the coils in back (lifted to stay level) the ride/handling on the road gets funky from what I have heard. Going to leaf/leaf at least balances things out front and rear.
And the 2nd gen frame was pretty much the same as the earlier leaf-sprung truck frame, aside from the few brackets tacked on for the control arms. It is therefore relatively easy to slap on some spring hangers (just like on the front) and go with that.
Linked coil suspensions are really nice on a custom tube buggy. You can build the tube frame to have the right mounting points in the right locations to make the linked suspension work well. When you try to jam a linked suspension into an existing frame with things like body, gas tank, exhaust, etc. in place already, you have to either compromise the link design or move existing stuff around.
Final thing is reliability. Leaf springs are super reliable with lots of redundancy. With a military wrap on one or both ends, you can even break the main leaf and still drive the truck. Lots of folks have not even known they had a broken leaf until some time later when they find it. Break a heim joint or a control arm on a 4-link and you are dead in the water until you fix the break.
One is with the 2nd gens, when you put leaves on the front (with the SAS) and combine that with the coils in back (lifted to stay level) the ride/handling on the road gets funky from what I have heard. Going to leaf/leaf at least balances things out front and rear.
And the 2nd gen frame was pretty much the same as the earlier leaf-sprung truck frame, aside from the few brackets tacked on for the control arms. It is therefore relatively easy to slap on some spring hangers (just like on the front) and go with that.
Linked coil suspensions are really nice on a custom tube buggy. You can build the tube frame to have the right mounting points in the right locations to make the linked suspension work well. When you try to jam a linked suspension into an existing frame with things like body, gas tank, exhaust, etc. in place already, you have to either compromise the link design or move existing stuff around.
Final thing is reliability. Leaf springs are super reliable with lots of redundancy. With a military wrap on one or both ends, you can even break the main leaf and still drive the truck. Lots of folks have not even known they had a broken leaf until some time later when they find it. Break a heim joint or a control arm on a 4-link and you are dead in the water until you fix the break.
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09-19-2006, 08:34 PM
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I am not a believer....I think if you keep the sas low, and add adjustable links, panhard drop, and a thinner driveline it works well on and off road.
If you want to run big tires with a big lift...go with leaves all around
If you want to run big tires with a big lift...go with leaves all around
09-20-2006, 06:35 PM
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I did the leaf swap on my 95 when I went with a 4" IFS lift. I did this for several reasons. One, the ProComp lift was engineered poorly and actually caused damage to my rear axle. Two, it was VERY VERY unstanble on offcamber and highway corners. I thought about a well engineered 4link, but that would have been major redesign on the 4runner. There isnt room to run long enough link on the upper mounts due to the location of the fuel tank. Which was another reson to do it, the upper links are too short.
I went to 56" leaf, and like 4crawler said, was a easy swap The frame is almost the same as a short bed truck. So plas the runner stuff out, and welded OEM spring hanger/shackle mount it. I used custom alcans designed for the weight of my truck. I was VERY impressed. I had more wheel travel, more stability, I could cruise safer on windy roads. The only drawback was a little axlewrap, but with the half torque leaf alcan and some others use, it wasnt not bad at all.
I reccommend this mod to anyone going more than 3" on a stock rear suspension.
I went to 56" leaf, and like 4crawler said, was a easy swap The frame is almost the same as a short bed truck. So plas the runner stuff out, and welded OEM spring hanger/shackle mount it. I used custom alcans designed for the weight of my truck. I was VERY impressed. I had more wheel travel, more stability, I could cruise safer on windy roads. The only drawback was a little axlewrap, but with the half torque leaf alcan and some others use, it wasnt not bad at all.
I reccommend this mod to anyone going more than 3" on a stock rear suspension.
09-21-2006, 05:11 PM
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but i think it wouldnt be that hard if i just relocate the spare and gas tank and weld on some new UCA mounts farther away and make the arms. i would defenatly spend the little extra and make basicaly make a new rear 4link than run leafs.
09-21-2006, 06:31 PM
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Making a 4-link that is streetable isnt as easy... And you also would have to get some very long coils underthere to get lots of travel to make it worthwhile....
Can it be done, oh yes... is it an easy option, no or people would be doing it more....
Can it be done, oh yes... is it an easy option, no or people would be doing it more....
09-21-2006, 10:45 PM
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thats an understatement.
The geometry that goes into that is difficult for even top fab guys. To make it work the best possible way involves hours of time consuming labor and measurements.
you can't just "throw on" more links, you have to replace EVERYTHING. Your stock links arc in a specific way when the truck flexes, you add more junk, and it won't arc the way its supposed to, and you'll break things. All 4 links have to work together, and that is what is so difficult. The lengths need to be exact down to like 1/32 of an inch, or more and those numbers are determined in special computer programs, or with a lot of math.
Do a TON of research before you try that, otherwise you'll have a big pile of crap that won't go anywhere.
The geometry that goes into that is difficult for even top fab guys. To make it work the best possible way involves hours of time consuming labor and measurements.
you can't just "throw on" more links, you have to replace EVERYTHING. Your stock links arc in a specific way when the truck flexes, you add more junk, and it won't arc the way its supposed to, and you'll break things. All 4 links have to work together, and that is what is so difficult. The lengths need to be exact down to like 1/32 of an inch, or more and those numbers are determined in special computer programs, or with a lot of math.
Do a TON of research before you try that, otherwise you'll have a big pile of crap that won't go anywhere.
09-21-2006, 11:10 PM
#15
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Over about 3 inches, things get iffy.
Not to mention, having a panhard rod is really not as nice as a true 4-link.
In the rear of my runner, I have a half triangulated 4 link with coilovers. Only the uppers are triangulated. It drives like a dream on 37's.
Linking bodied trucks involves a risk. You are limited on placement because of frame and body. Some times this impacts drivability.
Anyone in CO is welcome to come by and go for a ride. If you ask nice I may even let you drive it. A well done linked truck is a pleasure. Links are not just about throwing frame to axle connections around though.
Not to mention, having a panhard rod is really not as nice as a true 4-link.
In the rear of my runner, I have a half triangulated 4 link with coilovers. Only the uppers are triangulated. It drives like a dream on 37's.
Linking bodied trucks involves a risk. You are limited on placement because of frame and body. Some times this impacts drivability.
Anyone in CO is welcome to come by and go for a ride. If you ask nice I may even let you drive it. A well done linked truck is a pleasure. Links are not just about throwing frame to axle connections around though.
09-21-2006, 11:19 PM
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Over about 3 inches, things get iffy.
Not to mention, having a panhard rod is really not as nice as a true 4-link.
In the rear of my runner, I have a half triangulated 4 link with coilovers. Only the uppers are triangulated. It drives like a dream on 37's.
Linking bodied trucks involves a risk. You are limited on placement because of frame and body. Some times this impacts drivability.
Anyone in CO is welcome to come by and go for a ride. If you ask nice I may even let you drive it. A well done linked truck is a pleasure. Links are not just about throwing frame to axle connections around though.
Not to mention, having a panhard rod is really not as nice as a true 4-link.
In the rear of my runner, I have a half triangulated 4 link with coilovers. Only the uppers are triangulated. It drives like a dream on 37's.
Linking bodied trucks involves a risk. You are limited on placement because of frame and body. Some times this impacts drivability.
Anyone in CO is welcome to come by and go for a ride. If you ask nice I may even let you drive it. A well done linked truck is a pleasure. Links are not just about throwing frame to axle connections around though.
sounds like a nice setup... i really want to see how it looks under there...
09-27-2006, 02:36 PM
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I did this spring swap on my 3rd gen because of reliability, strength and stabality. With the 3rd gens, the coils are not captive, meaning you don't have a clip to hold the coils to the axle or frame. When I had spacers on top of my coils, I experienced the coil slipping out from under the spacer...not fun.
During a run in Colorado through Iron Chest, my upper link snapped a 5/8" bolt in two. I made the whole trail with one upper link and the two bottom links, and of course the pan-hard link. But, its a little unsettleing to be wheeling with only 1 upper link.
In moving to the leaf setup and setting up the shackles to a little more lean, I have a great ride, very nice and soft, and it flexes very well. My traction bar has a johnny joint on the front end that attaches to the frame. This allows the traction bar to swing in a complete arc with the suspension, eliminiting any binding that may occur, and it keeps the power to the wheels, instead of getting wrapped up in the springs. Being that the shocks are Rancho 9000, I can lean the shocks, and tweak the shocks to be a bit stiffer to compensate for the lean of the shocks. It works out very well. No axle wrap, incredible ability to lean, strong, reliable and flexy.
During a run in Colorado through Iron Chest, my upper link snapped a 5/8" bolt in two. I made the whole trail with one upper link and the two bottom links, and of course the pan-hard link. But, its a little unsettleing to be wheeling with only 1 upper link.
In moving to the leaf setup and setting up the shackles to a little more lean, I have a great ride, very nice and soft, and it flexes very well. My traction bar has a johnny joint on the front end that attaches to the frame. This allows the traction bar to swing in a complete arc with the suspension, eliminiting any binding that may occur, and it keeps the power to the wheels, instead of getting wrapped up in the springs. Being that the shocks are Rancho 9000, I can lean the shocks, and tweak the shocks to be a bit stiffer to compensate for the lean of the shocks. It works out very well. No axle wrap, incredible ability to lean, strong, reliable and flexy.
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