Winching with an Automatic Transmission

Mojo_Risin · 04-03-2007, 09:35 AM

I recently added a Warn m8000 to my rig and I've read the manual and a lot of stuff online but what seems to be missing in all this info is what gear you should be in when recovering another vehicle. Do you want to be in drive with the foot on the brake (or ebrake on), or in Park? I really think being in park would not be the wisest choice and would be hard on the tranny.

Any insight?

John

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WATRD · 04-03-2007, 09:44 AM

It depends. For really light duty stuff, park and ebrake are fine. But if there is a risk of you being pulled forward, then neutral with you standing on the brakes is the safest for the equipment. Drive is a safety concern.

Homer666 · 04-03-2007, 09:49 AM

Excellent question.....and I'm not sure of the answer. I only had to assist in the recovery of a couple of vehicles with my winch (usually I just tug them out with a snatch strap). I kept the transmission in neutral, emergency brake on, and foot heavily on the brake. I'm very interested in seeing how some of the more experienced members respond.

James

***midiwall*** · 04-03-2007, 09:58 AM

I defer to Rob's 517 years of off-roading experience for the answer, but one thing to point out is the difference between the e-Brake and standing on the pedal...

Remember that the e-Brake only locks up the rears which are drums in most of our cases, whereas standing on the pedal will lock up the rears AND the fronts.

Yota Tony · 04-03-2007, 09:59 AM

In neutral with your foot on the brake.
Don't use the e-brake as your rig may still get pulled forward.

If it's a really heavy pull then tie your rig off to a tree or 2nd rig.

WATRD · 04-03-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yota Tony

If it's a really heavy pull then tie your rig off to a tree or 2nd rig.

There can damage due to frame stretching/tweaking if that is not done right...

Bill · 04-03-2007, 10:02 AM

All of our hydraulic winches at work require Neutral, e-brake and standing on the brakes (or so sayeth the transport guys).

If we're winching really heavy stuff, we normally chalk the wheels and stand on the breaks...you ain't moving.

Bill · 04-03-2007, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

There can damage due to frame stretching/tweaking if that is not done right...

True, but if you're pulling something that is THAT stuck as to bend your frame, your best bet is to get a 2nd vehicle to help and/or a truck with a bigger winch.

Yota Tony · 04-03-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

True, but if you're pulling something that is THAT stuck as to bend your frame, your best bet is to get a 2nd vehicle to help and/or a truck with a bigger winch.

Exactly.

When I had friends' TJs winching out my stuck Grand, most the time they had to tie off to something. This was mainly because my Grand weighed around 5000lbs. Some time they had to do a double line pull.

It depends on the rig doing the winching and rig being winched.

bob200587 · 04-03-2007, 10:28 AM

The last time I had to be winched out, it was by a TJ. I was stuck pretty bad and couldn't come out from the front, so we rigged up a pulley so that he could be in front of my truck yet winch from the rear. We had to attactch his truck to a tree and a guy that was watching said that when he started winching me out, his tires were actually lifted off the ground as it pulled.

Ric · 04-03-2007, 10:59 AM

a quick search online provided lots of info:

http://www.truckstuffusa.com/witeandhowto.html
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/winches/winch5.htm
http://www.superwinch.com/support/le.../trailers.html

Corey (i think its him) has a great write up on winching.

Mojo_Risin · 04-03-2007, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric

a quick search online provided lots of info:

http://www.truckstuffusa.com/witeandhowto.html
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/winches/winch5.htm
http://www.superwinch.com/support/le.../trailers.html

Corey (i think its him) has a great write up on winching.

Well thanks for the links (i've read them all) but none of those talk about putting your truck in gear or in neutral, etc when recovering another vehicle. It's wierd that no one address this issue.

John

Ringmaster · 04-03-2007, 11:18 AM

Do not put the vehicle in Park!

Reason being is the parking pawl which pivots off of two bosse's cast into the transmission case, and when in Park position, the pawl locks into a drum in the geartrain.

If enough pressure is applied to the pawl, the pin which run's through it and into the bosse's, will break the bosse's off, effectively breaking the transmission case. Park will no longer work.

Costing you a transmission R&R, stripdown, a new transmission case, and reassembly.

Not cheap, been there done that with a Chevy TH350 years ago.

If you can pull your vehicle, [ the winching vehicle ] up to a tree, stump, or rock, let the bumper roll into and rest on the tree/stump/rock, and pull the other rig that way. Without using park, just lock up the brakes.

Ric · 04-03-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_Risin

Well thanks for the links (i've read them all) but none of those talk about putting your truck in gear or in neutral, etc when recovering another vehicle. It's wierd that no one address this issue.

John

ahhhh , thats what i get for reading to fast. sorry John

but Im no winching expert, NOT even close.
IMO I think every situation is different.

drguitarum2005 · 04-03-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

There can damage due to frame stretching/tweaking if that is not done right...

what is the right way to do it? would tying off via a hitch-mounted shackle do it right? that way, you have the tie-off equally between both frame rails (assuming you're tied straight behind you) and provided youre winching straight again, youre also winching off both frame rails.

WATRD · 04-03-2007, 12:59 PM

Ideally, you never attach the rear to something when winching. A safer bet from the perspective of frame damage, is to secure the front bumper either by putting it against something or by attaching your anchor to it. That way the added load down the frame is zero.

Now, if you have a truly rigid winch mount that bridges the fronts of both frame rails solidly and you have a bumper or hitch in the rear that bridges the rear of the frame rails solidly, you are minimizing your risk.

However... there is always a risk when you secure the rear, then load the front. If you get shock loaded or even worse, shock load from an angle, the frame can get tweaked from a rectangle into a parallelogram. The level of damage all comes down to the force exerted and the rigidity of the bumper/mounts. Sometimes the damage is slight, sometimes your rig will crabwalk forever more.

WATRD · 04-03-2007, 01:01 PM

I should also mention that anchoring dead center in your rigid rear mount will also help reduce the risk. Loading one corner in the rear, when winching in the front increases the risk.

Chaplain · 04-09-2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_Risin

Well thanks for the links (i've read them all) but none of those talk about putting your truck in gear or in neutral, etc when recovering another vehicle. It's wierd that no one address this issue.

John

If your recovering someone else it doesn't hurt to pull as well as wind the cable in. (By putting the truck in gear I'm just guessing you mean reverse if your recovering someone else.) If your recovering yourself then you want to help your winch by trying to drive too, so of course put it in gear and light on the skinny pedal. Otherwise, big rock in front of tire, neutral and stand on the brakes.

Re "double line pull": Don't forget your clevis and snatch block. A snatch block doubles your winches power.

Blizzard · 04-10-2007, 11:47 PM

I don't agree with the reversing method while winching another truck.

The winch clutch isn't meant to support that kind of forces neither the winch cable.

I've seen people doing very stupid things with winches like using the cable as a tow strap and things like that...

Winch is a "double sharped weapon" as we say in Spanish, it can get you unstuck or can be a nightmare if you don't use it properly. Please be careful with winches!

David

**Lysmachia** · 04-11-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blizzard

I don't agree with the reversing method while winching another truck.

The winch clutch isn't meant to support that kind of forces neither the winch cable.

I've seen people doing very stupid things with winches like using the cable as a tow strap and things like that...

Winch is a "double sharped weapon" as we say in Spanish, it can get you unstuck or can be a nightmare if you don't use it properly. Please be careful with winches!

David

x2 - I would rather treat my winch well than have to replace winch parts - and a sure way to be replacing winch parts is to be adding uncontrolled vehicle force to it!

Tortuginator · 04-11-2007, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blizzard

I don't agree with the reversing method while winching another truck.

The winch clutch isn't meant to support that kind of forces neither the winch cable.

I've seen people doing very stupid things with winches like using the cable as a tow strap and things like that...

Winch is a "double sharped weapon" as we say in Spanish, it can get you unstuck or can be a nightmare if you don't use it properly. Please be careful with winches!

David

I agree, I actually work at Warn Ind. and have alot of experience around the testing of winches and stuff like that, plus a little off-roading experience of my own. NO REVERSE when winching someone else out, it can add more load than you winch is capable of handling, plus it can put more stress on your bumper which could break it, snap it, bend it, etc... Like it was said previously, place your bumper up against a tree or something solid that you are positive wont move, and use that as your stopping force if the vehicle stuck starts pulling you in. OR, if you have a place on your bumper itself that is rigid and strong enough, you could wrap a tow strap around it, and anchor yourself behind your vehicle, keeping all your force on the bumper itself instead of stressing the frame. To do this, wrap the tow rope around the bumper, and drag it under your vehicle and anchor it well behind you. I've seen it done, but never done it myself. and it makes sense to me. As for your quesstion, no park, no gears, leave it in nuetral and use the foot brakes (and block them up if possible.)

04-03-2007, 09:44 AM	#2 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	It depends. For really light duty stuff, park and ebrake are fine. But if there is a risk of you being pulled forward, then neutral with you standing on the brakes is the safest for the equipment. Drive is a safety concern. __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search

04-03-2007, 09:49 AM	#3 (permalink)
Homer666 Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 104	Excellent question.....and I'm not sure of the answer. I only had to assist in the recovery of a couple of vehicles with my winch (usually I just tug them out with a snatch strap). I kept the transmission in neutral, emergency brake on, and foot heavily on the brake. I'm very interested in seeing how some of the more experienced members respond. James __________________ 2000 SR5 4Runner: TRD supercharger; full URD kit; rear ARB Air locker; Yakima rack and accessories; ARB Sahara bumper with IPF fogs; Warn 9000 lb winch w/ synthetic line; full T/C skid plates; Stubbs Rock Sliders; OME springs/shocks; K/C Daylighters; front and rear flood-lights; IC-V8000 VHF; FT-857 HF radio; cb and scanner radios; Alpine IVA-D300; RAM Computer/CamCorder mounts; StreetPilot 2820 GPS; A/R Outlaw II's with 285/75/16 BFG M/T's; Optima yellow-top; custom cargo-box; Billet Grill.

04-03-2007, 09:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
*midiwall* Sponsoring Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seattleish, WA Posts: 9,078	I defer to Rob's 517 years of off-roading experience for the answer, but one thing to point out is the difference between the e-Brake and standing on the pedal... Remember that the e-Brake only locks up the rears which are drums in most of our cases, whereas standing on the pedal will lock up the rears AND the fronts. __________________ ~ Mark '96 4Runner Limited S/C MI - 370cc injectors, Air! horns, Airaid MIT, ATS A-arms, 285/75/R16 BFG MTs, Bored TB, Brembo slotted, Cobra 75 WXST, Deckplate, Downey headers, Hayden cooler, IPT valve body, Level 10 torque convertor, Meanstreak exhaust, OME/OME rears, On-board PC (XM, Nav, WiFi, etc), Port 'n Polish, Remote Start, SAW fronts, Hilux console, SMT-5, Stubb's sliders, Supra MAF, TJM-17, 2.0" pulley, Viair 450c, Walbro 190, Weasy2k cams

04-03-2007, 09:59 AM	#5 (permalink)
Yota Tony Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,063	In neutral with your foot on the brake. Don't use the e-brake as your rig may still get pulled forward. If it's a really heavy pull then tie your rig off to a tree or 2nd rig. __________________ Anthony 93 ZJ - Stockish (HP D60 Front, 14 Bolt Rear, 231/D300 Crawl Box...awaiting 40" tires) Ballistic Crap Missile ILikeMud.net Mallcrawlin.com SOTRA

04-03-2007, 10:02 AM	#7 (permalink)
Bill Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Calgary, AB, Can Posts: 690	All of our hydraulic winches at work require Neutral, e-brake and standing on the brakes (or so sayeth the transport guys). If we're winching really heavy stuff, we normally chalk the wheels and stand on the breaks...you ain't moving. __________________ 86 Turbo Pickup EB Street RV head EB 268 Cam V6 Brakes + MC A340F auto ---> W56 5-spd swap ...I want a bigger turbo...

04-03-2007, 10:28 AM	#10 (permalink)
bob200587 Contributing Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,843	The last time I had to be winched out, it was by a TJ. I was stuck pretty bad and couldn't come out from the front, so we rigged up a pulley so that he could be in front of my truck yet winch from the rear. We had to attactch his truck to a tree and a guy that was watching said that when he started winching me out, his tires were actually lifted off the ground as it pulled. __________________ 87 4runner 4x4 SR5 22RE ARB Bull Bar, 31X10.50 Mastercraft M/T's, Stock 4.10 Gears, Flowmaster Muffler, LCE Header AISIN Manual Hubs, Marlin Crawler Sliders 190XXX miles

04-03-2007, 10:59 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ric Banned - User requested Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: earth Posts: 4,494	a quick search online provided lots of info: http://www.truckstuffusa.com/witeandhowto.html http://www.offroaders.com/tech/winches/winch5.htm http://www.superwinch.com/support/le.../trailers.html Corey (i think its him) has a great write up on winching.

04-03-2007, 11:18 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ringmaster Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spokane Valley Washington Posts: 814	Do not put the vehicle in Park! Reason being is the parking pawl which pivots off of two bosse's cast into the transmission case, and when in Park position, the pawl locks into a drum in the geartrain. If enough pressure is applied to the pawl, the pin which run's through it and into the bosse's, will break the bosse's off, effectively breaking the transmission case. Park will no longer work. Costing you a transmission R&R, stripdown, a new transmission case, and reassembly. Not cheap, been there done that with a Chevy TH350 years ago. If you can pull your vehicle, [ the winching vehicle ] up to a tree, stump, or rock, let the bumper roll into and rest on the tree/stump/rock, and pull the other rig that way. Without using park, just lock up the brakes. __________________ 99 4Runner, 3.4, 5 spd., Manually shifted E-Locker, 4:30 gears, 285/75/16 MTR's, Airbox mod through the bottom of the inner fender. Last edited by Ringmaster; 04-03-2007 at 11:28 AM.

04-03-2007, 12:59 PM	#16 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	Ideally, you never attach the rear to something when winching. A safer bet from the perspective of frame damage, is to secure the front bumper either by putting it against something or by attaching your anchor to it. That way the added load down the frame is zero. Now, if you have a truly rigid winch mount that bridges the fronts of both frame rails solidly and you have a bumper or hitch in the rear that bridges the rear of the frame rails solidly, you are minimizing your risk. However... there is always a risk when you secure the rear, then load the front. If you get shock loaded or even worse, shock load from an angle, the frame can get tweaked from a rectangle into a parallelogram. The level of damage all comes down to the force exerted and the rigidity of the bumper/mounts. Sometimes the damage is slight, sometimes your rig will crabwalk forever more. __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search

04-03-2007, 01:01 PM	#17 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	I should also mention that anchoring dead center in your rigid rear mount will also help reduce the risk. Loading one corner in the rear, when winching in the front increases the risk. __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search

04-10-2007, 11:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
Blizzard Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Barcelona (Spain) Posts: 912	I don't agree with the reversing method while winching another truck. The winch clutch isn't meant to support that kind of forces neither the winch cable. I've seen people doing very stupid things with winches like using the cable as a tow strap and things like that... Winch is a "double sharped weapon" as we say in Spanish, it can get you unstuck or can be a nightmare if you don't use it properly. Please be careful with winches! David __________________ '94 Toyota 4Runner 3.0 Turbo Diesel Intercooler Auto – Trail-Gear 4'' SAS front, Trail-Gear 5'' rear leaves swap, 35's, FR&RR E-Lockers and too many things more to write...

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