Churnd

I've been doing a little research in upgrading the audio in my rig, and here's what I want to do. I want to add this powered subwoofer:

The WooX



I figure I can mount it somewhere out of the behind the drivers seat or underneath. I don't need a lot of bass so this seems like it'll do the job well. Plus it has a remote that controls the gain, phase, and frequency.

Also, I want to add a set of tweeters for better imaging. I want to run them in parallel with my front speakers (Kicker 4"), but I don't know if this is possible or not. My receiver puts out 22 watts RMS so I think it would probably be enough to drive the tweeters too. If anybody knows for sure, let me know. also, would I need a crossover for the tweeters? Let me know what you think of my proposed setup. Thanks.

Cebby

You need to run a cap in line with the + wire going to the tweets. Not sure of the value though. Depends on how low you want the tweets to play. If memory serves, a cap filters out the lows and a coil filters out the highs. The values on the caps or coils determine what they filter out. You need to look and see if your amp can run two ohm. Effectively, you will be driving 2 ohm in the upper frequency range. Since this generally isn't a big power drain, you can probably get away with it on a 4 ohm amp. If it shuts down, just use a coil to filter the highs on your existing 4" speakers. I'll see what I can find for you regarding filter values. You might want to PM PhxTRDrunner. He probably knows this stuff off the top of his head...

impulsebrklyn

ok got a few questions before i give any recommendations

What kind of head unit do you have?

What year 4runner?

Budget?

What speakers are in the doors? (factory or aftermarket)

Im against the Woox as well ill give recommendations after you answer the above.


CHris

White SR5

I would say you should add a crossover. If you got a local car audio store I'm sure they'd know what to give you. It is a cap that filters out lows and a coil that does the highs to confirm Cebby's post. A crossover will incorporate both, and you can mount it on the inside of your door panel, or under the kick panel, or anywere else really... Some come with a 3 dB gain/cut option so if the tweeters hurt your ears, you can cut them down a few dB's, or add some highs if you need more. If you're nt concerned with budget, I might suggest investing in a component set of speakers that come with the woofer (4" mid-range), crossover, and tweeters. If you're looking at a tight budget though, I'd say try the capacitor and coil (probably 2 or 3 bucks each at radio shack). I can guarantee it would work, but the crossover idea I'm almost positive will please you if you decide on that one. Hope this helps.

Zach

Duffdog

The correct cap value for most tweeters is 4.7microfarads at 25V or higher-- ( unless the cap comes with the tweeters, which is entirely possible )

Oh and heres a neat little installer secret-- you can mount 5" woofers where the 4" ones are just by drilling holes in the 5" woofer frame-- then you could have a 5" component set with separate tweeters which would sound awesome!

Tim

Bumpin' Yota

DO NOT PARALLEL THE TWEETS WITH THE 4"!!!!!!!
I can garuntee you that doing this will, over a very short time, kill the deck and void your warrenty.


If you want to do what you've said, the PROPER methods are:

1. Use an active crossover on a small amp that has a delayed turn on. This amp would be running the tweets and the 4s stay on deck power. Doing that would give you the MOST flexibility in terms of your cutoff slopes (12db/octave - 18db/octave - 24db/octave - etc) as well as different crossover fequencies. A general rule of thumb is that most tweeters high pass filter needs to be set 1 octave above it's low end frequency range. (for example, a tweet that will play from 2khz to 22khz will need to be crossed over at 4kw with a 12db/octave cut)

2. Run the tweets off of the deck and run the 4s off of an amp that puts out ~ 25watts x 2 @ 4ohms. In this scenario you will definately have to build or buy a high pass crossover somewhere in the above neighborhood's cutoff. The amp on the 4s should allow you to more easily control what they get in terms of signal as well. (And yes 25 amplifier watts is a HELL of a lot better than the "25watts" the deck puts out. )

3. DO NOT PARALLEL the tweets with the 4's, this will drop the nominal impeadance to around 2 ohms per channel voiding the warrenty on you deck and roasting the deck's small amp...

4. Run everything off of the deck - the 4s off of the rear channels and the tweets off of the front channels using a (or 2) passive crossover(s) as mentioned in #2

(passive crossovers are non adjustable, cheap, suck up a bit of power, go between an amp and a speaker, and play with back emf's and whatnot.....the above mentioned caps in other posts are serving to give you a 6db/octave cut and act as passive crossovers.)

(active crossovers have the RCA's plug into them, require power, rem, ground wires, are adjustable, do not rob ANY power, boost RCA voltage, but cost a little more)

I could go on for hours on other, more expensive ways to set this up, but Ill digress...


The woox I HIGHLY recommend that you use the RCA outputs from your deck to run signal to. But whatever you do, do not parallel the tweets with the 4s....that will kill your deck pronto...


here's a pic of my installs in the past - the current install is top secret until its unveiling.... If you have ANY questions at all do not hesitate to email me, I can explain anything a bit more clearly in email when im not going batty trying to write java.

nelson390@hotmail.com


http://www.sounddomain.com/member_pa...=make%3DToyota

Churnd

I like the WooX because it seems like it's not gonna be a killer sub that you can hear riding alongside someone who has it... and that's what I want. I'm in this for my enjoyment, not others'. Also I like it's size and the fact that I'll be able to keep it somewhere out of the way. I have a pickup, not a 4Runner... if I had a 4Runner, I'd be popping for the better system. The main reason I asked you guys about it is if it seemed like it was worth the price.

I used to have a RF punch amp, Punch DVC 10" sub in a sealed box that sat behind the drivers seat, completely blocking my left rear 6x9 speaker. I got rid of it because it blocked the speaker, it was too obvious sitting there, therefore too easy to steal, plus it just seemed too much. I had it turned down an awful lot so I wouldn't get headaches, and I didn't have a big amp either.

Now about the tweeters... after doing a little math for the impedences... 1/(1/4+1/4) = 2, yeah i realized that 2 ohms would fry my amp. I would like to go component, but it's pretty expensive for what I wanna do. I'd rather keep it under $300 bucks total. The sub comes to $230 w/ shipping so that doesn't leave much for the tweeters or component system or whatever.

Would I be able to run a component system off my receiver? It's a Pioneer (I forget the model) with a 45wx4 Mosfet amp (22 watts RMS). I like the receiver as it does everything I need it to do. I used to have Pioneer's first Organic EL display receiver that I paid $600 for, then traded it in for a Kenwood Excelon. I loved those receivers, but when I got my truck, I just found them too much for what I needed. So I sent the Excelon back to Crutchfield and got a $200 cheaper Pioneer, and spent that money on new shocks. But anyway, I know every audio guru out there will say that you should never run a component system straight off the receiver... but off an amp instead because you won't be enjoying the full power. Well if that's the case then I'll adjust the fader to where it'll power the front speakers a little more and crank up the volume! Any input here is welcome, guys.

Cebby

I agree that an active xover is the way to go also, but if he wants to stay under $300 for everything, that will be impossible to do. If he uses a passive crossover or a combination of cap AND coil, his impedence will not go down to 2 ohm. The internal amp will see 2 ohm ONLY is the 4"(coax?) and the tweeter separates are playing the same frequencies. If you coil the 4 and cap the tweet, it won't see two ohm (unless the wrong cap/coil values are used). A passive crossover might be doable within the budget with some inexpensive tweeters - and would give a better slope than raw caps/coils (I thought I remember some of these being 12db/octave). I'm not up on the latest xovers, but aren't most active xovers 18 or 24db/octave nowadays?

You CAN run component sets off of the stock head. The results will be better than you think. You can always add an amp later.

Obviously, the BEST reasonable scenario is to do all line-level (RCA) to crossovers then to amps, then to separates. Actually the BEST would be fiber and all digital, but let's not go there. ($$$$$).

Churnd

So the crossover that comes with the component systems doesn't kill the power any? I always thought it would. Keep in mind I'm only talking about a 4-5" system here.

Churnd

I went to a local car audio shop today to see if they had any good used deals and talked to the owner about what I wanted to do originally, which is wire 2 tweeters parallel to the front speakers. He said that it wouldn't affect anything, because they're just tweeters. He said if it were regular speakers, that's where you'd have problems with the impedance getting messed up.

I'm also considering this powered sub:

The Infinity Basslink




I can get it for about $250 here.

It seems like a pretty good step up from the Kenwood WooX, as it has a 200 Watt amp. But I can also get the Kenwood for $190 from the same site. What do y'all think?

Cebby

I love it when I'm right!

White SR5

Personally, I'd say the WooX is a rip-off. Maybe I was lucky, but I got my 1200w max subs for $150 a piece. I did do a few months of shopping. My friend has a Jeep Wrangler and was consulting me on putting a sub in, and my suggestion to him was to just get an 8" or 10'' sub maybe even one with this new Neodynmium magnet (much more shallow mounting depth) and just put it in a truck box and slide it under the seat or velcro strap it somewhere. Lowe's has MDF for around $20 per sheet, and you can build anything you want concerning subs with that. The Infinity bass link might be more practical than the WooX, but I honestly think you could get a good quality 400w sub, amp, and box for under $200 if you play your wallet right. Cartronixs.com usually has good prices, but shop around some and you might be surprised at the money you can save. If I would have bought and gotten everything in my car installed at a car audio store, it would have more than doubled the price I payed. No kidding. Good luck!

Zach

Bumpin' Yota

quote:
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Originally posted by Cebby
Effectively, you will be driving 2 ohm in the upper frequency range. Since this generally isn't a big power drain, you can probably get away with it on a 4 ohm amp.
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Well with a separate amp this would not be a problem at all as most can run at 2 ohm stereo, however on a deck I would not try it. It's tempting fate too much for my blood - and Im the dude giving a pair of 15's 4kw rms each.


Other than that minor point I agree with you 100%

Bumpin' Yota

Yes passives absorb power, but dont worry about it, as the drain is minimal when dealing with higher frequency transducers such as you are talking of.

Bumpin' Yota

This is the EXACT reason I will no longer deal with shops. 85% of them dont know jack in relation to car audio and it's installation.

Now to the fallacy within the shop owner's statement:

If you parallel two 4 ohm speakers, the nominal impeadance drops to 2ohms provided they are both playing the same frequencies of the same material and are perfectly in phase with one another. If they play different frequencies that do not overlap or only minorly overlap, the nominal impeadance can be considered 4ohms. This is why a component set is paralleled inside of the passive crossover, yet retains a 4ohm nominal impeadance.

However your coaxial kickers have a tweet which will be playing the same material that your new tweets will be. This will effectively lower the nominal impeadance. If your amp can handle this it's not a problem, however the deck is not advertised as being able to handle this, so I'd avoid it. And if anything did happen the warrenty is out the window...

Adding the cap and inductor will served to change the phase of the material going to the extra tweet and effectively keep your nominal impeadance from dropping as much. You should be ok even with a deck amp in this scenario, but ya gotta nail the capacitor values and the inductor values. (basically what cebby said...)

White SR5 speaks with wisdom, powered subs are ok for sound quality, but dont expect any kind of bass that will shake stuff. If thats your goal however, go for it

I personally LOVE building boxes and making people think I have more than what I do....for instance a set of 8" subs being fed 1500 watts doing a legal 145db in my yota and being able to play down to 35hz and make your doors rattle and hair shake.

Steve

Churnd

This is getting to be a pretty frustrating decision. I want to believe the shop owner because it'll be easier on my wallet. But then again, Bumpin Yota sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

What would you guys do if you were me? My current setup is 2 4" speakers up front and 2 6x9's in the back. I have to admit, if I could have it my way, what I'd do is ditch everything but the receiver, then run a 5.25" component system up front in the doors and a 8 or 10" sub off a 300W amp in the back. But I'd have to sell the speakers I have now and I don't think anyone would want to buy them. The main reason I'm shying away from the sub, box, and amp is because it takes up space and is too noticable, but I know it'll sound much better. But if I did that, I'd want to tint the windows and get an alarm of some kind. More money to spend... yay! :cry:

What do you do if you're me?

Cebby

OK Steve, so we DO agree on something...

I remember hooking up separate tweets to a stock head when I was young and foolish. I was taught that they don't generate much of a load even when they overlap - advice from a shop owner. I guess I should have considered the source. BTW, never cooked a head that way.

It's refreshing to see someone with an affinity for SPL that knows something about the rest of the spectrum. I competed on the IASCA circuit for about 6 years - I'm ancient - that finished up for me a good 12 years ago. It's kinda like riding a bike though...

Cebby

I think it depends on what you want - like what Steve eluded to. Do you want to shake the windows or do you want a "sound quality" type system?

If you want the latter, the powered sub with a passive xover (or caps/coils) and separate tweets would be your safest bet. You should be able to get close to your budget and you could upgrade it when you could afford to.

An alarm isn't a bad idea either.

Churnd

Another option: (don't you love them? )

Ditch all the speakers now. Sell it to someone on this board... hopefully!!

Get this...

The Infinity Basslink listed above.

Infinity 605cs

I figure I'd be paying somewhere around 100 bucks for tweeters alone... so why not get an entire system for 40 bucks more? I could install them in my doors, and since their power range is 2-90 watts RMS, I could run them off my receiver and get a small amp later if I need it.