22RTE/22RE hybrid running. - Page 2

Bill · 12-17-2006, 12:04 PM

Are you going to have the valve clearance to run AV gas, seeing that it is leaded?

Isn't the lead build up on the valves going to couse some serious issues?

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dcg9381 · 12-17-2006, 01:23 PM

Bill, I don't think lead will build up on the valves.. Lead is pretty soft. New valve seats are harder than the ones in factory v8s back in the 1970s. The lead is actually good for detonation also...
We're not talking about running this truck around on leaded all the time, we're talking about a tankful to give me some safety factor if i want to tune it to peak.

I'm also installing a 38mm TIAL wastegate, which should eliminate boost creep.

dcg9381 · 12-19-2006, 09:39 AM

An update on my turbo project:
I started tuning this thing mid last week. Basically my primary goal was to get the air/fuel right and then play with timing. Megasquirt has the ability to "autotune" - which I found useful, but only after radically slowing down how fast it reacts rich/lean conditions.

Once set, you basically try to go through a number of throttle position and RPM combinations, keeping the throttle as steady as possible for each. Obviously you can't do this perfectly, so you smooth out areas that don't look right manually.

For those who haven't seen this - the fuel map is VEbin.
Y-axis is engine load, x-axis is RPM. Anything over 100KPa is boost - this is just an example:
http://lakebox.dnsalias.com/photos/1988%20...ock22remaps.jpg

You can set air fuel targets also - basically I choose 12.4:1 into boost. Below boost, 14.4:1.

After I got that right, I decided to tune into boost. My turbo is a bit large - a t3/t04b, my understanding is the wastegate was setup for 6psi.
I'd start to boost at about 2k and be at 9k by 4500, which is a little late and indicates that my turbo is too big for what I want to do.
I retarded timing, but I hit detonation at 9psi a few times (just for a second). Logs indicated I was doing a bit more boost than that. I checked the interal wastgate acutator, rigged it up to my leak down tester and it wasn't opening until 20 psi. That's Bad.

As it turns out, this was enough to blow my HG. I did a leak down on #4 and had air in the cooling system.

This was a bit of a bummer... I reviewed my logs and found that I was hitting over 9psi.. Not good.. I also figured out that megasquirt can't retard past base timing. That means if you mechanically set your base timing to 10 BTDC, you can't go lower than that. You need to set it to 0 BTDC and advance electronically at idle.

Things to correct:
1) Base timing issue. Be sure to confirm that advance / retard works with a timing light.
2) Boost creep. I added an external wastegate to my setup, set to .4 bar ~6psi, until I'm tuned.
3) Drop my AFR to 11.5:1, per Rick's suggestions (info@fullboogie.net) - he's done a lot more tuning than I have.

Bumpin' Yota · 12-19-2006, 09:48 AM

So wait the OEM wastegate on that turbo wasnt opening untill 20psig? Could there have been a leak from the compressor outlet to the WG actuator, or is the spring just that BIG on the WG actuator? Or is the hotside just flawed in that the internal wastegate cant flow enough?

dcg9381 · 12-19-2006, 11:36 AM

No leak. I put 20psi (via leak down tester) into the WG actuator itself.. It doesn't feel damaged, it feels like a big spring.

The hotside has a larger than normal internal gate.. I could have just replaced the actuator.

Bill · 12-19-2006, 11:48 AM

Is there a limit to how much you electronically advance timing? Base timing sets the relation between the crank shaft and the cam, and thus the valves.

So if you set the base timing to 10* BTDC, isn't it going to run slightly different than setting it to 10* electronically with a 0*BTDC, because of valve position? Or is it negligable?

dcg9381 · 12-19-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Is there a limit to how much you electronically advance timing? Base timing sets the relation between the crank shaft and the cam, and thus the valves.

So if you set the base timing to 10* BTDC, isn't it going to run slightly different than setting it to 10* electronically with a 0*BTDC, because of valve position? Or is it negligable?

There is a limit with a distributor, you could always trigger way to early and actually have the spark distributed to the wrong cylinder.. Practically, don't worry about it.

Electronic and static timing of 10 BTDC should be the same... I was having issues setting 10 BTDC electronically, so I'll sort that as soon as it's back together.

tampabayota · 12-19-2006, 04:05 PM

you guys are loseing me!!!! I dont know anything about this stuff and your scraring me.My turbo is being shipped today from jason at tec turbo finally.Motor will go in right after x mas. can you break this down to laymans terms as to what is going on.Darin did you blow the hg after your build or before?

dcg9381 · 12-19-2006, 04:31 PM

tom, don't worry about it... The TEC setup you're getting will work fine with the 22RTE.

My motor has significantly higher compression than yours, but not as much as a 22RE. I have to sort out the timing and fuel - things that your ECU does for you automatically. If you don't get them right then you can have issues like I just had.. It's one of the downsides to having a "flexible" ECU.

In layman terms:
1) Air/fuel (A/F) = I get to determine how much fuel I give the motor.
2) Timing = I determine when to trigger the spark plug. Too early and it can detonate. Too late and I lose power. BTDC = before top dead center, this is the # that you typically see on your timing light. With turbo motors, you start giving it less timing as you increase boost.
3) Higher octane - race gas - AV gas - these fuels are less volitile than standard pump gas. As such detonation is less likely.

tampabayota · 12-19-2006, 07:02 PM

thanks darin any help i can get ill take!!!

12-17-2006, 01:23 PM	#27 (permalink)
dcg9381 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: austin, tx Posts: 1,825	Bill, I don't think lead will build up on the valves.. Lead is pretty soft. New valve seats are harder than the ones in factory v8s back in the 1970s. The lead is actually good for detonation also... We're not talking about running this truck around on leaded all the time, we're talking about a tankful to give me some safety factor if i want to tune it to peak. I'm also installing a 38mm TIAL wastegate, which should eliminate boost creep. __________________ http://www.22REturbo.net

12-19-2006, 09:39 AM	#28 (permalink)
dcg9381 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: austin, tx Posts: 1,825	An update on my turbo project: I started tuning this thing mid last week. Basically my primary goal was to get the air/fuel right and then play with timing. Megasquirt has the ability to "autotune" - which I found useful, but only after radically slowing down how fast it reacts rich/lean conditions. Once set, you basically try to go through a number of throttle position and RPM combinations, keeping the throttle as steady as possible for each. Obviously you can't do this perfectly, so you smooth out areas that don't look right manually. For those who haven't seen this - the fuel map is VEbin. Y-axis is engine load, x-axis is RPM. Anything over 100KPa is boost - this is just an example: http://lakebox.dnsalias.com/photos/1988%20...ock22remaps.jpg You can set air fuel targets also - basically I choose 12.4:1 into boost. Below boost, 14.4:1. After I got that right, I decided to tune into boost. My turbo is a bit large - a t3/t04b, my understanding is the wastegate was setup for 6psi. I'd start to boost at about 2k and be at 9k by 4500, which is a little late and indicates that my turbo is too big for what I want to do. I retarded timing, but I hit detonation at 9psi a few times (just for a second). Logs indicated I was doing a bit more boost than that. I checked the interal wastgate acutator, rigged it up to my leak down tester and it wasn't opening until 20 psi. That's Bad. As it turns out, this was enough to blow my HG. I did a leak down on #4 and had air in the cooling system. This was a bit of a bummer... I reviewed my logs and found that I was hitting over 9psi.. Not good.. I also figured out that megasquirt can't retard past base timing. That means if you mechanically set your base timing to 10 BTDC, you can't go lower than that. You need to set it to 0 BTDC and advance electronically at idle. Things to correct: 1) Base timing issue. Be sure to confirm that advance / retard works with a timing light. 2) Boost creep. I added an external wastegate to my setup, set to .4 bar ~6psi, until I'm tuned. 3) Drop my AFR to 11.5:1, per Rick's suggestions (info@fullboogie.net) - he's done a lot more tuning than I have. __________________ http://www.22REturbo.net

12-19-2006, 09:48 AM	#29 (permalink)
Bumpin' Yota Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 3,639	So wait the OEM wastegate on that turbo wasnt opening untill 20psig? Could there have been a leak from the compressor outlet to the WG actuator, or is the spring just that BIG on the WG actuator? Or is the hotside just flawed in that the internal wastegate cant flow enough? __________________ 3vze, 4x4, sr5, 90, auto, LSD 2x dB Drag World Finalist 2003 Nopi Nat. Street B champ 2004 SBN Street C champ 2004 SBN Advncd NW Champ 2004 Former WR Holder in NW. SPL: 159.8db @ 42hz In loving memory of Jamie Riggs 5/15/85 - 10/8/04 Last edited by Bumpin' Yota; 12-19-2006 at 10:00 AM.

12-19-2006, 11:36 AM	#30 (permalink)
dcg9381 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: austin, tx Posts: 1,825	No leak. I put 20psi (via leak down tester) into the WG actuator itself.. It doesn't feel damaged, it feels like a big spring. The hotside has a larger than normal internal gate.. I could have just replaced the actuator. __________________ http://www.22REturbo.net

12-19-2006, 11:48 AM	#31 (permalink)
Bill Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Calgary, AB, Can Posts: 690	Is there a limit to how much you electronically advance timing? Base timing sets the relation between the crank shaft and the cam, and thus the valves. So if you set the base timing to 10* BTDC, isn't it going to run slightly different than setting it to 10* electronically with a 0*BTDC, because of valve position? Or is it negligable? __________________ 86 Turbo Pickup EB Street RV head EB 268 Cam V6 Brakes + MC A340F auto ---> W56 5-spd swap ...I want a bigger turbo...

12-19-2006, 04:05 PM	#33 (permalink)
tampabayota Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: TAMPA BAY Posts: 457	you guys are loseing me!!!! I dont know anything about this stuff and your scraring me.My turbo is being shipped today from jason at tec turbo finally.Motor will go in right after x mas. can you break this down to laymans terms as to what is going on.Darin did you blow the hg after your build or before?

12-19-2006, 04:31 PM	#34 (permalink)
dcg9381 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: austin, tx Posts: 1,825	tom, don't worry about it... The TEC setup you're getting will work fine with the 22RTE. My motor has significantly higher compression than yours, but not as much as a 22RE. I have to sort out the timing and fuel - things that your ECU does for you automatically. If you don't get them right then you can have issues like I just had.. It's one of the downsides to having a "flexible" ECU. In layman terms: 1) Air/fuel (A/F) = I get to determine how much fuel I give the motor. 2) Timing = I determine when to trigger the spark plug. Too early and it can detonate. Too late and I lose power. BTDC = before top dead center, this is the # that you typically see on your timing light. With turbo motors, you start giving it less timing as you increase boost. 3) Higher octane - race gas - AV gas - these fuels are less volitile than standard pump gas. As such detonation is less likely. __________________ http://www.22REturbo.net Last edited by dcg9381; 12-19-2006 at 04:38 PM.

12-19-2006, 07:02 PM	#35 (permalink)
tampabayota Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: TAMPA BAY Posts: 457	thanks darin any help i can get ill take!!!

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