1986 SR5 XTRA Cab turbo. What can I do to bring out some of the power?
Nov 16, 2006 | 09:11 PM
#1
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1986 SR5 XTRA Cab turbo. What can I do to bring out some of the power?
My first thread..please be patient.
This is an automatic 4x4 with the ct20 and about 120k on it. Unless I am missing something - this turbo does not seem to do much at all. Green light comes on the dash but so? I was expecting the truck to have at least a little snap! If it wasn't for the green light coming on I would have no idea it is a turbo.
I say this in comparison to an 83 Celica GTS w/MT I have. It seems that it will run rings around this truck.
It has passed smog just fine. Now I would like to see what I need to do to have an idea that there is a turbo under the hood. The engine is stock except for having a little hotter coil. Plugs are burning clean. You press on the gas and it builds up speed but there's plenty of time to virtually make a sandwich before any real speed is accomplished.
I had considered putting a better flowing cat on as well as a muffler. I have an extra high flowing magnaflow cat that should work ok. But for a muffler all I have is a Borla fiber canister type that originally was designed for big displacement motorcycles - straight through with about a 2" I.D. I think the stock piping is about 2".
What can I do to bring out some of the power? Probably will have to consider another muffler. But I will likely try the Borla out just to try it. Want to have a powerful mellow tone - not the ricer sound.
So, I am all ears. Any help would be appreciated. I have even considered a manual boost controller for the system.
Thanks for your time and patience.
Bociba
This is an automatic 4x4 with the ct20 and about 120k on it. Unless I am missing something - this turbo does not seem to do much at all. Green light comes on the dash but so? I was expecting the truck to have at least a little snap! If it wasn't for the green light coming on I would have no idea it is a turbo.
I say this in comparison to an 83 Celica GTS w/MT I have. It seems that it will run rings around this truck.
It has passed smog just fine. Now I would like to see what I need to do to have an idea that there is a turbo under the hood. The engine is stock except for having a little hotter coil. Plugs are burning clean. You press on the gas and it builds up speed but there's plenty of time to virtually make a sandwich before any real speed is accomplished.
I had considered putting a better flowing cat on as well as a muffler. I have an extra high flowing magnaflow cat that should work ok. But for a muffler all I have is a Borla fiber canister type that originally was designed for big displacement motorcycles - straight through with about a 2" I.D. I think the stock piping is about 2".
What can I do to bring out some of the power? Probably will have to consider another muffler. But I will likely try the Borla out just to try it. Want to have a powerful mellow tone - not the ricer sound.
So, I am all ears. Any help would be appreciated. I have even considered a manual boost controller for the system.
Thanks for your time and patience.
Bociba
Nov 17, 2006 | 06:24 AM
#4
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,825
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From: austin, tx
Bociba,
A few things:
Your boost light will be lit based on throttle position and RPM... You could remove the turbo and it'd still light up.
Get a boost gauge. You should see about 6-8 psi of boost. With 120k you could very realistically have a leak in the intake, a bad turbo, or a number of things ranging from cheap to expensive.
If you want to do modifications, my suggestion is to do a 2.5" down pipe off of that turbo with a piece of flex tube. Take it all the way back, if you can afford it, 2.5" cat, 2.5" muffler.. Brand is largely unimportant. You can buy the cat and muffler for and flex tube for around $100 if you order it online. Find a local shop to install. The only tricky part is the flange on the turbo.
If you want more power beyond that.. I'd start thinking about mounting up a CT26 turbo and getting that thing to run at 8-9 psi, which is about the limit of the factory ECU before it cuts fuel.
More power than that, you'll have to megasquirt, SDS, or FAST your ECU.
A few things:
Your boost light will be lit based on throttle position and RPM... You could remove the turbo and it'd still light up.
Get a boost gauge. You should see about 6-8 psi of boost. With 120k you could very realistically have a leak in the intake, a bad turbo, or a number of things ranging from cheap to expensive.
If you want to do modifications, my suggestion is to do a 2.5" down pipe off of that turbo with a piece of flex tube. Take it all the way back, if you can afford it, 2.5" cat, 2.5" muffler.. Brand is largely unimportant. You can buy the cat and muffler for and flex tube for around $100 if you order it online. Find a local shop to install. The only tricky part is the flange on the turbo.
If you want more power beyond that.. I'd start thinking about mounting up a CT26 turbo and getting that thing to run at 8-9 psi, which is about the limit of the factory ECU before it cuts fuel.
More power than that, you'll have to megasquirt, SDS, or FAST your ECU.
Nov 19, 2006 | 08:17 PM
#5
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CT20 Turbo
I had an extra turbo that I decided to diassemble. I don't know much about them but uh...is there supposed to be that big hole by the wastegate? Seems that the rotor w/blades is sloppy too. I can shake it back and forth and it will wobble probably 0.02 to 0.03 in. The exhaust manifold has a crack in it as well.
I am to still take a look at the one on the truck. I was hoping my backup might be ok.
I will keep working on it as I have time. Thanks to all for their commests and direction. Good to have people willing to help.
I am to still take a look at the one on the truck. I was hoping my backup might be ok.
I will keep working on it as I have time. Thanks to all for their commests and direction. Good to have people willing to help.
Nov 20, 2006 | 01:53 AM
#7
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 876
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From: Longmont Colorado
the turbo should be spooled by 2500rpm or atleast spooling by then.The CT20 is garbage.proke to cracks.Get your self an intercooler,rebuild the stock turbo if you want but the best idea would be upgrade it. search on google for 22rte or turbo 4runner/truck.There are 2 links i found helpful when i had mine. Check for boost leaks at all the rubber fittings. a cracked manifold will hurt how fast and hard your turbo will spool so replace it.LC has a nice unit and it will take a t3/t4. My old turbo runner was bored,tons of headwork,turbo upgraded manual boost control,maf modding,injectors.on high boost id pull 22psi spikes when shifting(auto) and could pull a modded trd s/c truck like nothing. the one thing i noticed is 110 feels like 150 in a lifted truck lol
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Nov 20, 2006 | 07:52 AM
#8
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,825
Likes: 2
From: austin, tx
What mid 1980s turbo isn't prone to cracks after doing 20 years hooked to an exhaust system without a flex tube?
The first thing you need to do is get a boost gauge. Otherwise, you've got no idea how well your turbo is performing. As I mentioned above, that green light means nothing. If your turbo was missing, the light would still go green!
You'll never do 22psi on the stock ECU. The stock ECU pulls fuel at about 9psi.
LC makes t3/t4 "upgrades". So does TEC. I think the TEC solution is more reasonable and there are a few people running them. LC is still getting around $800 for a turbo header that's had bad reviews.
You can get significant power out of that setup and still have it be reliable.
A ct26 is pretty much a bolt on upgrade (minor modifications required).
With the CT20, don't waste your time or money on an intercooler - it's a low boost turbo, it's small, and I don't think it induces a lot of heat at stock boost levels. Note, I could be wrong, as I haven't got a CT20 check intake temp.
I think you'll bigger bang for your buck elsewhere..
I'd ask LC Engineering if you can use their SDS system with an automatic. The ECU pin out on that truck doesn't have a lot for auto tranny control, so it may be completely seperate - which would be a good thing. To get beyond about 170 hp or so, you'll have to do an aftermarket ECU - megasquirt, SDS, FAST, or a piggy-back system - I simply don't know enough about the auto setup to give you good advice. There are also ways to play with the stock ECU, see my post below.
With a new 22RTE, I'd do the following
Check your stock boost level.
Check for boost leaks. Google: "turbo leak tester" - You can make one for under $20.
Go to a 2.5" downpipe with a flex tube.
Consider a turbo upgrade: CT26 or t3/t4.
Consider an aftermarket ECU to get past stock fuel / boost limitations.
Seach for "Jeff Mosk" - he's been very successful getting big power out of these motors and has done everything from deal with the stock ECU to go bugdet-crazy and built a 300hp 22RTE.
The first thing you need to do is get a boost gauge. Otherwise, you've got no idea how well your turbo is performing. As I mentioned above, that green light means nothing. If your turbo was missing, the light would still go green!
You'll never do 22psi on the stock ECU. The stock ECU pulls fuel at about 9psi.
LC makes t3/t4 "upgrades". So does TEC. I think the TEC solution is more reasonable and there are a few people running them. LC is still getting around $800 for a turbo header that's had bad reviews.
You can get significant power out of that setup and still have it be reliable.
A ct26 is pretty much a bolt on upgrade (minor modifications required).
With the CT20, don't waste your time or money on an intercooler - it's a low boost turbo, it's small, and I don't think it induces a lot of heat at stock boost levels. Note, I could be wrong, as I haven't got a CT20 check intake temp.
I think you'll bigger bang for your buck elsewhere..
I'd ask LC Engineering if you can use their SDS system with an automatic. The ECU pin out on that truck doesn't have a lot for auto tranny control, so it may be completely seperate - which would be a good thing. To get beyond about 170 hp or so, you'll have to do an aftermarket ECU - megasquirt, SDS, FAST, or a piggy-back system - I simply don't know enough about the auto setup to give you good advice. There are also ways to play with the stock ECU, see my post below.
With a new 22RTE, I'd do the following
Check your stock boost level.
Check for boost leaks. Google: "turbo leak tester" - You can make one for under $20.
Go to a 2.5" downpipe with a flex tube.
Consider a turbo upgrade: CT26 or t3/t4.
Consider an aftermarket ECU to get past stock fuel / boost limitations.
Seach for "Jeff Mosk" - he's been very successful getting big power out of these motors and has done everything from deal with the stock ECU to go bugdet-crazy and built a 300hp 22RTE.
Last edited by dcg9381; Nov 20, 2006 at 12:24 PM.
Nov 20, 2006 | 08:19 AM
#9
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,825
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From: austin, tx
Here's a post made recently by Jeff Mosk if you're interested in going to beyond your stock power settings and tweaking the stock ECU a bit... Note I've never modified a 22RTE ECU:
RE: fuel cut at 10psi
In all seriousness, there is no simple way to solve this problem other than reducing boost. Every other solution has either complications or consequences.
Fuel cut is triggered by a combination of rapid changes to throttle angle and AFM vane angle. This is why you can sometimes see 14 psi of boost without hitting fuel cut, but other times see fuel cut at a relatively low psi, such as 10 psi. In the former case, when you creep up on boost slowly, the ECU sees the increase in throttle and AFM vane angles, but it sees them over a longer period of time, so fuel cut is avoided. In the latter case, the ECU sees both events happen simultaneously, and it says, “Whoa! Stop that!”
With the stock ECU, to avoid fuel cut but keep high boost you need to increase AFM spring tension, so the AFM vane swings open more slowly. However, this also means less air going into the motor, so you would usually do this but also swap in a larger AFM (1982 Supra AFM, for example). But more spring tension = less fuel, so you should also swap in larger injectors. The right combo is 1982 Supra AFM + 400 ccc/min injectors. However, do not expect this to be an easy combo to tune. However, this will let you run 14 or 15 psi.
Alternatively, you can modify the AFM. There are instructions for this on our Yahoo group site, in the Files area. Read the whole document, as doing the mod will also increase the ignition advance curve, which will cause other problems.
Finally, you can eliminate the ECU completely and switch over to a standalone setup, like the MegaSquirt. See Darin’s site [gratuitous self promotion of dcg9381's website removed - suffice to say that I can help make megasquirt a lot easier].
Those are your four options: run less boost, run a different AFM + larger injectors, modify the stock ECU, or run a different ECU.
In all seriousness, there is no simple way to solve this problem other than reducing boost. Every other solution has either complications or consequences.
Fuel cut is triggered by a combination of rapid changes to throttle angle and AFM vane angle. This is why you can sometimes see 14 psi of boost without hitting fuel cut, but other times see fuel cut at a relatively low psi, such as 10 psi. In the former case, when you creep up on boost slowly, the ECU sees the increase in throttle and AFM vane angles, but it sees them over a longer period of time, so fuel cut is avoided. In the latter case, the ECU sees both events happen simultaneously, and it says, “Whoa! Stop that!”
With the stock ECU, to avoid fuel cut but keep high boost you need to increase AFM spring tension, so the AFM vane swings open more slowly. However, this also means less air going into the motor, so you would usually do this but also swap in a larger AFM (1982 Supra AFM, for example). But more spring tension = less fuel, so you should also swap in larger injectors. The right combo is 1982 Supra AFM + 400 ccc/min injectors. However, do not expect this to be an easy combo to tune. However, this will let you run 14 or 15 psi.
Alternatively, you can modify the AFM. There are instructions for this on our Yahoo group site, in the Files area. Read the whole document, as doing the mod will also increase the ignition advance curve, which will cause other problems.
Finally, you can eliminate the ECU completely and switch over to a standalone setup, like the MegaSquirt. See Darin’s site [gratuitous self promotion of dcg9381's website removed - suffice to say that I can help make megasquirt a lot easier].
Those are your four options: run less boost, run a different AFM + larger injectors, modify the stock ECU, or run a different ECU.
Last edited by dcg9381; Nov 20, 2006 at 12:26 PM.
Nov 22, 2006 | 04:00 PM
#10
Here's how the wastegate area should look. You will make 0 power with that hole in it.
Nov 22, 2006 | 05:23 PM
#11
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,689
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From: Sarasota, FL
all of this is VERY good advice but let me add a few things.
Your truck feels like it doesnt have a turbo because right now, it essentially doesn't! You have zero boost right now with the wastegate not sealing. Get the boost gauge (they can be found for 20 bux in summit) then get yourself a pyrometer to monitor your EGTs. Lastly when you DO get that new exhaust (w/ flex pipe) dont put a cat or a muffler on it.....The best turbo exhaust is none at all!!
Your truck feels like it doesnt have a turbo because right now, it essentially doesn't! You have zero boost right now with the wastegate not sealing. Get the boost gauge (they can be found for 20 bux in summit) then get yourself a pyrometer to monitor your EGTs. Lastly when you DO get that new exhaust (w/ flex pipe) dont put a cat or a muffler on it.....The best turbo exhaust is none at all!!
Nov 24, 2006 | 01:31 PM
#12
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Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Minnesota
all you need to know is at http://www.well.com/~mosk/
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