Hi. Long time lurker but new to posting.
First I want to thank you guys for the excellent info I have read on this forum. You guys have helped me a lot by reading your posts.

my question.
When my transmission is in park with the vehicle on the ground should I be able to rotate my rear driveshaft by hand? My guess is no. If I answered my own question correctly then where should I start troubleshooting? Its a 2002 t4r limited 3.4, 4wd automatic and it won't start after I pulled an idiot move try to reverse down a steep hill.

What happened was the truck was in drive on a steep hill. I thought I put it in reverse because I needed to back down the hill. I let my foot off the brake and it started rollling back but very slowly. I hit the gas (again, thinking it was in reverse) and the truck jumped forward about a foot and stalled. Trying to start it the sound was metal to metal. Almost like the started was not engaging all the way. Now it wont start but it will roll backwards when in park. When I try to start it there is a huge load on the battery and the starter does not sound right.

.My thoughts are blown transmission or torque converter or my flex plate is destroyed. My problem I have no clue where to start troubleshooting or how to troubleshoot this with the truck not starting. Any thoughts, advice or write ups will be greatly appreciated. if you need more info let me know what would help.

Thanks for checking this out and happy new year.

 

Its odd that the rear driveshaft seems unconnected to the tranny, but the engine is also binding when cranking, and this all happened at the same time.

If the car is stationary and in park, you should not be able to rotate the driveshaft by hand for two reasons: the rear diff, and the locking pawl in the tranny. Both of these things would have to be damaged/defective to allow you to turn the driveshaft by hand. The starting problem seems to be totally unrelated and could be the battery, cables, the starter, flex plate, the engine, or maybe the unlikely case of locked up/frozen torque converter.

Seems like you could eliminate some of the possibilities with a few experiments. First eliminate the diff by checking that the tranny linkage is still connected and moves properly when you shift. The two pieces of the linkage should be solidly bolted together.

Put it in neutral. With one rear wheel off the ground, can you rotate that wheel freely? Do the diff gears seem smooth? The rear driveshaft should always turn whenever you rotate the rear wheel. When one is held solid it should be impossible to turn the other. There should be no slipping, clunking, or grinding. If there is any noise, is it from axle, diff or xfer case? The rear driveshaft is two shafts splined together. Make sure they can't be turned independently (stripped splines).

If all seems good, put the tranny in park and repeat. You should not be able to turn the rear wheel/rear driveshaft if the parking pawl is engaged and the tranny shaft/xfer case output shaft are solidly connected to the rear driveshaft. If you can turn that rear wheel, one of those is broken. You can drop the tranny pan to check for chunks and verify some of the shift linkage and maybe the parking pawl.

To investigate the starting issue, first eliminate the battery/cables by jumpering or swapping with a known good battery. Could be that the starter pinion is jammed. If so, rotating the crank a bit each way might unstick it. You could remove the inspection cover for the flex plate and look at the teeth and manually turn the engine to look for bent or broken stuff. Pull that starter and bench test it.

If after all this you have no problem with your starting system but it still binds when cranking, then it should also be hard/impossible to turn the flex plate and torque converter manually. If so you will probably need to drop the tranny.

 

Thank you. I'm heading to where the truck with you reply in hand. I will do everything you said and report back tonight or tomorrow AM. The truck is a few miles away so I don't have instant access but I'm heading to it now. At least I have a starting point now.

 

Having re-read my post, I should add that it is more likely the engine/starter is seized or binding than the tranny/torque converter. I believe it is possible to work under the car to unbolt the torque converter from the flex plate, but you can't access all the bolts if you can't rotate these parts, and if you can rotate these parts you won't need to unbolt them.

 

Tns1. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I got some sort of flew over the past week. So far here is what I have done.

Neutral 1 wheel lifted = tire spins
Park 1 wheel lifted = tire won't spin
Neutral 2 wheel lifted = tires spin
Park 2 wheel lifted = tires spin
In any gear 1 wheel lifted = tire spins
In any gear 2 wheel lifted = tire spins
Took out starter, teeth look fine.
charged battery installed starter to check voltage levels and they are fine. Also checked continuity, no open or shorts.
looked at flex plate via the hole the starter goes in and the few teeth I saw had a tiny bit of ware on them but no chips. Im have trouble getting 1 bolt out of the inspection cover but will keep on it.

So I still need to bench test the starter,, get the inspection plate off and try to turn the motor by hand.. I will let you know what happened later today.

one more note.. when I put it into 4wd I heard the transfer case engage and when I took it out of 4wd I was no longer able to turn the driveshaft when in Park with one wheel off the ground..

Thank you for the response and troubleshooting tips.. this is my only vehicle and I'm not able to work without it.

 

Sorry for the delay in updating my post again. I'm in Santa Cruz ca and my power is out from the storms we have been hit with. I had to get a ride into town to update.

I've done all you said and still no start. Ican turn the engine by hand but it is extremely difficult. The starter seems to be struggling to turn it also. I've tried starting the truck in neutral and the result is the same. It seems to go into fine, the parking pawl is working but I'm confused on one thing.

When I have the car in any gear and both wheels are off the ground I can spin the wheels and stop the driveline from spinning with my hand. Is that part of the limited slip in the rear end?

thank you again for the help

 

The experiments I described are only for ONE wheel lifted, not two. Once you have lifted both rear wheels, they will spin even if the driveshaft is locked. What you describe so far suggests everything to do with the diff is normal provided you didn't hear any unusual noises. You could of course test with one wheel, lower that and test with the other, but only one wheel lifted at a time.

When you put the tranny in park and ONE wheel lifted and the lifted wheel didn't spin, this says the parking pawl, the diff and everything connecting them is probably fine. There is a scenario where just a piece of the ring gear in the diff is missing teeth. Just put it in neutral and watch the driveshaft as you turn the rear wheel to make sure it spins continuously and doesn't have a dead spot where it stops spinning. You could also turn the rear wheel a bit at a time, then put it in park and make sure it locks.

I would back off the other stuff and focus on the starter issue. There is a good chance your starter pinion is stuck in the engaged position. You can pull it now (no fun), or continue with these tests.
If you can rotate the engine by hand, then the starter should be able to turn it at least a little unless the starter is going out. Note that you need to manually turn the engine two rotations to make sure. Yes it is hard to turn, but it shouldn't be impossible. If you had a blown head gasket, coolant could get into a cylinder and hydrolock it. Another possibility is when you were climbing that hill at a severe angle, your engine got starved of oil and partly seized. Do this test to make sure you don't have these problems. Now have someone watch if the engine turns at all as you try to start it. As for electrical tests continuity is not good enough. Once you try to start, all the connections (battery terminals, ground cable, power cable) see 100+ amps of current. Any loose or corroded connection will prevent that current from reaching the starter. I just did this test for my own failing starter.

The most common starter failure is the internal solenoid contacts are worn away. That was the case with mine. Check these things and try to start at each step:

Clean your battery terminals and look for corrosion on the cable ends. Corrosion can get into the cable itself and cause high resistance.
Check that that both cables are solidly bolted at the starter and block.
Check that the starter solenoid gives a solid clunk when you try to start. If it doesn't, you can jumper from the positive terminal to just touch the small solenoid tab. Under the car, it should sound like a hammer hitting metal.
Check that the starter is solidly bolted and not loose.
If that hasn't fixed it try jumpering those cables:
Use jumper cables to connect the battery ground terminal to the engine block, then try it.
Now jumper the positive terminal to the main starter terminal, then try it.

If everything checks out and the starter still isn't able to turn the engine even a little, and your engine can be turned by hand, then you need to pull the starter. There are several writeups on how to pull it out of the LH wheelwell. Read them.

 

If you get to the point of pulling the starter you should know that the two bolts holding the starter on can be difficult because of the extreme angle. You will want to first remove the small exhaust bracket that is in the way. The upper starter bolt can be broken loose by reaching in the LH wheelwell and around the back of the exhaust pipe. This can be a better method since no angles, no swivel needed so the socket is less likely to slip and bung the bolt. You bung the bolt and you have doubled the work. You will need a 14mm 6point socket, a short extension, and a ratchet, all 1/2" drive preferred. You probably will need to extend that ratchet with a cheater pipe to get enough force. If you are lucky that bolt can then be removed with fingers.

To remove the (broken loose but still stubborn) upper bolt, you will need about 3ft of extension and a flex swivel, and the 6point socket. You need to go above the tranny cross-member and over the top of all wires to minimize the angle of the swivel. This elaborate approach is so you don't bung up the bolt. The lower bolt does not have the severe angle so you can use less extension. Failure on this means removing a section of the exhaust system.

 

Sounds like you shattered your flexplate. Open up the inspection plate and take a peek....

 

Again. Sorry for the delay. The power just came back on again last night. We here in Santa Cruz got pounded by the past few storms.

Ive done all the test listed here except for turning the motor 2 full revolutions and jumping the starter with leads to the positive starter connection and ground to body. I only turned the motor about a half of revolution and saw that was a mistake when I reread your post. Everything checks out so far although I'm only seeing 80-90 amps and not 100 on the starter.

I also have not pulled my inspection plate because 1 bolt is stripped and I have not been able to get it out cleanly. My next step is breaking off the head and hopefully get it out with an easy out. If it comes to drilling I have a large tap and die set. I did look with a mirror through the starter hole and what I saw looked good. There was a tiny bit of wear on the tip of the teeth that looked new because it had some shine to it. Compared to the the lower part of the tooth.

 

I did not realize your truck was not on flat ground. Any way you could coast back to a flat spot? It is dangerous to work under the car in that situation. The weight of the truck could put force on the drivetrain that could release unexpectedly.

The 100amps was a guesstimate. If you are seeing 80 amps with nothing turning, then starter or engine is binding is still my best guess. On an automatic, shifting through the gears is only moving the linkage and not any actual gears. It is only the park position that actually moves the parking pawl to a mechanical engaged/locked position.

I have never heard of a torque converter completely freezing up, but I imagine it is possible. This vehicle has a lock-up clutch inside the torque converter to improve freeway mpg, and I suppose it could fail in a locked position. A few years ago mine failed but what happened was some piece inside broke loose and ground up the innards. It still worked, but started throwing codes and my tranny was full of metal filings and had to be rebuilt.

Even with a locked up torque converter, you should (normally) still be able to put a wrench on the crank pully and turn the engine/torque converter/input shaft. Nothing engages in the tranny (except in park) until the tranny fluid is up to pressure. Lots would have to be wrong for a problem in the tranny to prevent the engine from turning, like a frozen front pump. Very unlikely. The starter cannot cause your truck to lurch forward for the same reasons. It is only with fluid pressure (at idle or above) that any force is transmitted from the input shaft to the output shaft. The parking pawl only locks the output shaft.

If I understand you, you have removed the starter. Either way do the jumper cable tests. With the starter out it should spin up fast and the pinion gear should snap in and out. You could also pull off the solenoid end cap to look at the contacts. If any contact is more than a little worn away, replace the starter (about $120 for reman). With the starter out you should again try to manually rotate the engine. The flex plate won't have anything to bind against, but have a buddy watch to see the plate isn't wobbling as you turn the engine.

While you are checking things, is there coolant in the engine oil? Is there oil in the radiator fluid? Is the radiator unexpectedly low? These things could point to a blown head gasket and hydrolocked engine. If that is the case, pulling some or all of the spark plugs would eliminate the binding.

 

So it took most of the day but we managed to get my 4runner on close to level ground.

I was able to turn the motor on the crank pully bolt 3 full revolutions. It seemed like it should have been a little easier to turn but not knowing the 3.4 very well it could be fine. Also all the fluids seem fine but I'm going to check the atf again tomorrow when I put a new transmission filter on it.

I didn't have time to test the starter again. By the time I got it on level ground the sun was starting to set. The rest of the day was spent on trying to gracefully get the stripped bolt out holding the inspection plate. I guess tomorrow I'm going to try some heat and more force.

Tomorrow Im going to:
1. pull the starter again and visually inspect it and do the bench/jump test.
2. get that stripped inspection cover bolt out and look at my flex-plate.
3. Pull transmission pan and filter to look for metal chunks and contaminated fluid (its time for a new filter anyway and I have one on hand).
4. Use a fully charged battery to try to start it again.
5. Compression test to make sure the motor is good. It better be, i just installed it 6 months ago.

Tns1:
You explained there would have to be something seriously wrong for the transmission to make the engine hard to turn. If the tests I do tomorrow look good is it worth it to separate the transmission from the motor to see if it starts or at least turns easier by hand? That's just a thought a friend had and I know a ton of labor. Your help has been indispensable.
i would really like to pay you back some how. Are you in california by chance? If not pm me and we can figure something out. I never understood how the torque converter gets power to the rest of the drive train until you explained it.

Ill repost back tomorrow evening with results.
thank you again

 

Before you unbolt the torque converter or pull the tranny pan, just pull the plugs and normally it should be very easy to manually turn the engine. If the starter isn't binding it should also quickly spin the engine. You could also remove a few bolts and peek behind the timing belt cover to check the belt. These tests should tell you which suspect is most likely: starter, engine or tranny.

If you STILL have binding and want to separate the engine from the tranny, the easiest thing is to remove the bolts holding the flex plate to the torque converter. You can then push the converter maybe a half inch away from the flex plate so the engine can spin without hitting. I'd be tempted to use a dremel with a cutoff wheel to cut the stubborn bolt on the inspection cover but that's up to you. If so, you would need to beg or borrow a voltage inverter to run any small power tools. Be careful under there with a torch. Bring a fire extinguisher (don't ask).

Forums like this one have helped me out many, many times. The best way to repay is to post what you learn even if it is something stupid that you or I have overlooked. So many people do not post a followup. Add pics if interesting. I have done my time crawling in the dirt underneath cars, and I am just glad it isn't me this time. I hope I have not led you astray and caused unnecessary work.

Hopefully it does not come to this, but if you find you need to do any major work like pulling the tranny, don't even think about doing this out in the boonies. Find someone with a winch to pull your truck out of the hole its stuck in and tow it to where you can easily work on it.

Note:
Your last post was hard to read (grey text on black background), but I see you replaced the motor 6mo ago. There are a few big mistakes that you can make when trying to mate a motor & tranny. One I have witnessed myself is a failure to engage the torque converter into the tranny properly. There is a notch on the converter shaft which must engage with the dogs on the front pump. The proper way is to push, wiggle, and turn until the parts slide fully together. The rookie mistake is to just push the two together and use the mounting bolts to squeeze the bell housing to the engine. If it wasn't lined up right you end up breaking a piece off the bell housing and/or you destroy the front pump and probably more. I hope this isn't the case for you, but it could explain some of your findings.

 

Here is where I got to yesterday.
I found the starter gear that pops in and out of the starter body was not totally engaging and upon further inspection the teeth on that gear were a little chipped on the tips of the gear. I went and got a new starter and installed it. When I pulled the started a turned to motor by hand it seemed the same.
I have not tried the new starter yet because it got too late and wanted to charge my battery. I pulled the pan on transmission and put the new filter and gasket on because I had them on hand anyway. I'm going to put the new atf in it tomorrow.
once again I got stuck trying to get that bolt on the inspection converter out again. I did not read your post before going to my truck. I wish I had because I have a cordless drummer with metal cutoff blades. I will bring it tomorrow to remove that bolt.
I did rotate the motor while a friend looked through the starter hole at the flex plate and saw no obvious problems but could not really tell if it was warped.
I decided not to compression test it because the motor was turning by hand ok.
so I will let you tomorrow if the new starter does the trick but I want to inspect my flex plate before I turn it over..
I'm not going to separate the torque convertor unless all else fails. I'm hoping with the atf change, transmission filter and starter it fires up.
one last note is I found little bit of metalis dust and 4-5 extremely small shavings of metal on the magnets in transmission pan. Is that normal?
thanks again for all the help.

 

I forgot to mention that the atf I drained was definitely burned.it was dark, dark red and smelled burned.
also the size of the few metal shavings in the transmission pan were no more than a 1/64 inch wide and the longest was a 1/4 inch long. The tiny bit of metal dust on the magnets were as fine as dust and a lot smaller than sand. There was maybe 1/16 of a teaspoon of the metal dust at most.
My next move is cutting off the bolt of the inspection cover for the flex plate. I don't know if it's OK to try to start it before I look at the flex plate so I'm going to be cautious and look at it first
I'll let you know tomorrow evening my results.

 

That starter does sound like it could be the problem - fingers crossed. By all means take it a step at a time. You don't want to mess up a new starter. If a good starter and good battery can't spin that engine then you will need to unbolt that converter and see if it is the flex plate or the tranny.

After a few years you will usually have some fine grey/black 'fuzz' on the magnets. The amount you found is normal, but the burnt oil and those larger 1/4" shavings may point to some future tranny problems.

 

I almost got to the point of trying to start it today but I had another stripped bolt on the inspection cover for the flex plate. It was one of the top ones and took 2 hours to remove. I finally got it though. My flex plate is not warped or missing teeth. There is some ware on the teeth but not bad for the mileage.

I also got delayed figuring out how to drain the atf completely. Im going to research that tonight but I do have a small transfer pump which I hope will come in handy.

I'm a bit worried about my transmission or transfer case again. As I was spinning the driveshaft back and forth in nuetral i felt a slight bit of play when I would change directions spinning it. I also heard a noise like gears spinning but it seemed a little too loud to me. I dont know if its normal or not. I didn't have the pan on yet so I could be stressing for nothing.

I have yet another question for you. Can I try to turn over with no pan on the transmission? It's probably a really stupid idea but I would like to see/hear it turn over before I put everything back together. If my transmission is bad then putting it all back together is pointless. If it will damage things I won't try until the pan is on.

I can't say thank you enough. I really can't. Not only was I lost in troubleshooting this but I have learned a ton of stuff from you. I'm good with motors and suspension but have never has to deal with this type of drive train issue.

 

I understand what you are saying about getting all that burnt oil out of the system. The torque converter and radiator bottom section probably hold a gallon or two. There are a couple excellent posts that describe using an inexpensive garden sprayer from Walmart or Target. That's what I did on a Tundra and it worked great. The method as I recall did require an assembled & working motor and tranny. The idea is you disconnect the return line from the radiator and let it run into a bucket. You then start the car for long enough to pump out just a few quarts, stop the engine, then use the garden sprayer to pump approx the same amount of new atf into the tranny fill hole. You repeat this for about 12-14qts worth. I used a long piece of 1/2" or so tubing so I could stand up front and work the bucket and the sprayer while a buddy sat in the cab. By doing only a few quarts at a time, you don't risk the tranny running dry, and you flush out 99% of the old oil.

Your case is a bit different. I think you are just going to have to fill it normally to get the truck home and maybe do this complete flush later. Just buy a couple gallons of the cheap stuff. You could turn the engine over first and even run it very briefly with no tranny oil, but I would put the pan on with just a couple of bolts to keep dust out. Once you know you can start it, reassemble and put in the cheap stuff so you can drive it back. Hope it starts up.

If you find you still have some binding preventing the engine from starting you could, as a last sanity check, loosen the belts and make sure the water pump, AC, alternator and power steering pump can spin freely. After that just focus on towing the truck back to your house since you are looking at pulling the engine or tranny.

 

I got everything back together and have the same result. The motor turns over but the starter sounds like it's struggling. The compression is excellent on every cylinder between 180-190 on all cylinders. Besides the torque converter, transmission or transfer case I don't know what else it could be.

This weekend I'm going to unbolt the flex plate from the converter and see if the motor starts or sounds better when it's turning. I'm hoping it's the torque converter because I already have a brand new one that was given to me by a friend who sold his truck before he installed it. If it turns out to be transmission or transfer case I will be looking at a used one unfortunately. Can't afford a rebuilt one of either right now.

The good news is I had a friend tow it to my house so I have my full arsenal of tools to use and I won't be laying in the dirt. It also now has a new starter now so that's a plus lol. I will report back after I unbolt the flex plate from the torque converter and have some sort of result for you.

 

How did it sound when you turned the motor over to check compression? Was the starter spinning fast? Going out on a limb, could you have spun a rod bearing or something that is making the motor tight to turn?