Ok, assuming I can get this together, what all would you guys want to see in the article? What kind of tests? What aspects would you like me to focus on?

 

i would say the quality of the springs is a major issue.

this wasnt really brought up in this thread but flex.

there is more but i am sure other people will reply.

 

also what he said.

 

Overall quality of the parts (spring hangers etc.) everything fits, real lift vs advertised lift, amount of travel (I don't know the shock lengths in each kit), how it flexes in real life situations (i.e not a fork lift or ramp), if it moves the axle forward if so how much. I'm interested in mainly real lift, flex, and quality of the parts (how they look, how they fit, they're square etc etc.)
TG-I personally appreciate the input you've had here!
I know I would like to see a thread where some of this TG info is reposted along with Marlin and possibly All pro post their stories too (not about Geiger etc but the product)

 

my 4Runner with TG 5" springs up front and 4" superlift kit in the rear:

just for height reference...

 

By quality what exactly do you mean? I'm just trying to figure out how to actually test quality. Hmm so I'd basically need to do an SAS with all the kits is what you guys are saying?

 

what? is that a problem?

 

Well only monetary wise. This would not only require me to install/uninstall all the kits, but to find an axle and incur all the other costs of the swap that are not part of the kit. Not that I would love to do or have a blast doing it. One thing I'm still unclear about is how you guys want me to measure the quality of the springs. Short of installing each kit and riding on it for a few months to let the springs settle.

 

in the review of the springs, not only should you test them when first installed obviously...but you should take measurements of ride height at frame front and rear, flex, etc..but then also do a long term analysis a year later with the same vehicle and components

 

Yes we will be at TDS and I will be uploading daily photos from the event site starting tonight! Look for photos on our web site. Look for our booth on Saturday afternoon.

 

Your not going to get accurate spring information doing 3 different solid axle swaps unless it was done in a controlled environment. That would require 3 different, identical trucks with the kits installed the same way (bumpstops etc) and driven over the same courses at the same speeds.

I think a better method of testing is to use a force curve machine like the one we use. This gives you accurate repeatable information that can be applied the same to each spring set.

Here you see us testing one of our 56" rear springs...
http://www.trail-gear.com/images/spring-testing-500.jpg

There is a computer next to it that monitors the force curve of the item being tested. The result is a graph that shows how much force is needed for a given amount of compression.

What we are looking for is a spring that will flex without too much weight being required. The test is repeated at least three cycles and sometimes as many as 20 cycles and the results compared. If the later tests show a lower force is needed to reach the fully compressed position or if the free height is less these are signs that the spring is exceeding its maximum repeatable bend point.

 

Overall fit and finish of the parts, how the welds look, everything is square, identical for all the matching parts (i.e all four shackle side pieces are exactly the same), the frame jigs and tube are the correct fit and size and layout etc. I'm pulling things out of my rear here because I haven't done a swap yet but pretty much the basics to what makes a good solid quality product

 

What Chris described is more along the lines of what I was envisioning. Doing SAS's won't really prove anything since there is no way to keep the conditions the components are subjected to the same.

Here's what we want to know:

• What all is included in the kit.
• Steel gauge measurements in the critcal components.
• Country of manufacture for each component (?)
• Spring testing results from a machine like TG's
• Overall delivered cost.

We also want to see pictures of all the components from the various manufacturers in a side by side comparison.

Obviously we're open to other thoughts, but this is would be what everyone needs to make informed decisions based on the product itself. The degree of customer service is also a big influencer - that's where the word of mouth of forums helps us all.

 

Leaf springs can be re-arched to add or subtract lift and it's not like "lift" is the way to measure the performance of a suspension component. Really I don't think that there is an easy way to decipher the nitty gritty differences between these products aside from time and educated customers providing feedback. As I have said before, I don't doubt Trail Gear's ability to produce a quality product at a lower price than what the off-road market has seen before. They are using a proven formula used by virtually every other industry out there from bicycles to automobiles.

I am glad to know that TG is doing their part to support the infrastructure via sponsoring vehicles, teams and events as well as participating in product give-away's etc. As I have said before my ONLY concern is their business ethics, which is also a form of supporting or not supporting the industry. If they are profiting at the direct expense of other companies I cannot condone that. However if they are simply implementing a better business plan and the other players are threatened by their early success than there is nothing wrong with that. I have been told stories from credible industry people claiming to be burned by TG. Now the question is are these people grossly exaggerating or even just slightly embellishing their side of the story? I can't say for sure because I wasn't directly involved and because of that I will give TG the benefit of the doubt. If they continue to support the industry (at least topically) and their products prove durable which I have no reason to believe they won't. Chris was with Marlin when they went through various quality issues with leafs, do you think he'd be inclined to go down that road again with a new company that he undoubtedly has a larger vested interest in? I highly doubt it.

Anyway I think this topic has been beat to death and it's gotten down to a thread about consumer alliances which was never the point and is not constructive.

 

Cebby's and Chris plan is more what I was looking at to evaluate. Doing a sas and examining every a year later is far from pratical for the subject of an article. I'll try and talk to the other manufacturers and see if they're interested.

 

My $.02... I just had to buy a Knuckle Rebuild Kit... I've bought from marlin... and I thought I would give Trail-gear a shot at service... Now the kit is $75... Not a big ticket item by ANY stretch of the imagination... Well I use my American Disterss card to buy all my Truck parts... The card had expired and they had mailed the replacement to an old address of mine... I called the card company and they told me I could continue to use the card till my "new" replacement showed up... They were wrong... I called TG and ordered my parts. They called back about an hour later and told me it was not going through... They were as great as they could be about the situation... I told John what happend and we laughed about it and talked about how that is typical of how Credit Card companys are... Well I told him I would call back the next day with a new card number... The next day they called me... just to check in and see how it was going... The card had not shown up so I told them I would call back when it did. Later that day when I called them not only did they remember me but they were as cool as could be and a pleasure to talk to on the phone! Now this might not be the biggest thing in the would but it meant alot to me.... I mean come on... it was a $75 order and they put alot of leg work into my order... THAT is coustomer service!!! and while I'm not saying I will never buy from anyone else again I am saying that I would have no reservations about buying from them again!!! Thanks Guys!!!

 

I would like to see someone else's outside opinion on the leaf springs. We have had our springs tested (both USA and import Springs). The information we gained was used to make a better product. We would like to improve our springs if something can be discovered that we have already not improved.

As for "real world testing”-I would like to see the different springs also get used and abused just like we do. We have personally jumped, rolled, crashed, wrecked and over loaded our trucks with our USA springs. We have gained a ton of feed back from customers about the USA springs that we have been selling for the last 2 years. I think time and customer feed back is more valuable then a spread sheet.

 

I just picked up my Trail-Gear springs (front springs and rear kit with springs) from UPS tonight. My first impression is they look to be of good quality.

I’ve purchased from both Marlin and Trail-Gear and will continue to buy from both, both companies rock at customer service. Product quality from both was great.

I went back and forth on what leaf springs to buy, Trail-Gears or Big Rocks Off-road USA springs (personally if you want the best US spring get Big Rocks) and finally decided to just give Trail-Gears a try. Yes, cost was a factor in my decision.

I’ll be installing my springs next weekend so Praufet if you want me to record anything let me know.

 

I'd appreciate some honesty in your postings, Chris. Cause the one above is by far the largest crock that I've read in a very long time. You've PM'd me statements to the exact opposite, admitting exactly what you did bring to Marlin (two products, IIRC - don't have you PM's handy right now), and yet you claim that YOU own all of Marlin's designs.

So I'd appreciate if you'd attempt some honesty, and I'm sure the rest of us would as well.

 

Dave,
I agree with your post that the customer feedback is the best. There are just toooo many parameters involved with a laboratory testing, (I know this from having 10+ years of experience in product development.) Even after all testing is complete it still comes down to "is the customer happy with the product?" Don't get me wrong, testing is extremely important and essential for product development and product design maintenance. TG will continue to its strong testing program.

At this point TG will not be making anymore posts on this thread, I will leave it up to the customer to decide what or where they want to purchase products from. Be it from TG or the competition I know the customer will be fully supported.

One last thing; I just want everyone to know that I am available at 559.252.4950 if you feel the need to contact me directly with any questions regarding TG products.

Thanks and Best Regards,
Matthew Messer