Doing a LT "right" also includes things like
-- cage

So its gets expensive fast...

As per the TTORA LT people - you need the cage - otherwise you'll bend the truck in no time.

Also - if yer dumb and jump the truck with the front LT but a stock rear - the bounce will flip the trick endo on the first big whoop....

 

Wierd, I thought the tons of armor, lockers, and correct gearing were the obvious.

Let me crack open my 4X4 Bible......ah yes there it is, #1 SAS



I agree if you are taking on the tougher trails, an SAS is the way to go for strength and reliability.

But, not everyone (Even those in Colorado) are taking on the toughest terrain. I think there is plenty for IFS to take on.

I find Yotatech irritating in that anytime anyone talks about LT setups or IFS in general, someone has to chime in with a short negative response.

I feel like we're all on a school bus going on a field trip and every time we have a stowaway from the short bus.

Back to ultimateyota.com.......

 

Why? The ride will be so much better with the coilovers, I'm hoping I can maybe get enough height to go to bigger tires, and the extra travel won't hurt. I already have ARB's front and rear, so keeping my diff saves me considerable money. Lastly, I want something different than you see everyday.

Ask SteveO and others who have a coilover/linked SAS how much it cost - FAR more than a leafspring setup, which you can maybe squeak by for $3000. I would bet coilover/linked is closer to $5000 ...

Isaac - the TC website says the only thing not included is coilovers, shock hoops, and T100 axles. Of course there are upgrades from the basic kit too.

As for the street tire comment, what's the difference between a concrete highway and a rock slab?

 

First of all, i'm not trying to dissuade you from doing this. I realize that you've been around the block, and know all the options. I think it will make you happy, and you'll be pleased with your truck. Not the way i'd do it, but it isn't my truck.

I listed the other stuff becasue in order to maximize the LT potential, you'll want the uniballs, and it would be pointless not to get the idler arm, and other steering stuff, as you won't want to put all that on only to pretzel the steering as before.

Its nice to see something different. You are right, SAS is far more expensive, but has more potential. The only way you get the same cost for LT out of a SAS is if you do hack job swap.

I'm glad you are going to do this, just wanted to raise some questions, and also put in my $.02.

Oh, and you need a crawler too.

 

Okay. Here's the deal. I know "different" is cool and all. I've been there. I've wanted to be different, do the different thing. I've learned after much car modding, "different" causes more headaches and more money spent, major PITA. Being different looks good on paper. But in reality, it causes just way too much heartache IMO to be worthwhile.

Also, of course coilover SAS will cost more. But what makes you think getting coilovers for the LT won't cost a ton as well? Coilovers cost $$, regardless of the axle setup dude, if you want decent coilovers.

Thing about SAS with coilovers, you'll have a ton more travel and a lot more strength. ORS does coilover setups now for SAS. Hell, a properly setup SAS will ride well. You know this, I'm sure.

I think you're going towards LT for all the wrong reasons. That's just my opinion. As others have stated, if you lived in an area where prerunning is popular, I'd say go for it and get some pics of you in the air! But because of your location, I think you should either remain stock like you are, or go SAS with a minimal lift.

Good luck on your choices bro.

 

Don't let them talk you out of it! I plan to do Total Chaos on my truck, too. My reasons are to increase wheel travel, add more comfort on long drives and maybe do some light duty high speed stuff. SAS makes sense if you rock crawl, but if your primary purpose is a DD that sees a little bit of everything, LT has lots of benefits all around. I get tired of doing the same trails over and over, so we go exploring and that means lots of miles. The road into Toroweap Overlook or Yampa Bench into Echo Park screamed for LT. I have not decided how crazy to be with my LT, but right now I'm thinking the Caddy Ball Joint that retains the torsion bars. It's not the latest and greatest, but it's been tried and works fine. I figure the Gen I with 12" of travel would make for a nicely enhanced front end. I already have some of the steering (well, the TC idler anyway), one of Sonoran's frame trusses, 33x9.50 tires and an RD90 front locker, so 5" more of travel and good shocks would be a pretty balanced all around truck in my mind. It's also not so crazy that a stockish rear suspension will be a big hold back.

 

Here's some general LT info that I have learned through trial and error, with my street tires..... so it may be different with mtrs or swampers:

For high speed stuff, the rear is almost more important if not equally important to the front. With my front setup, my rear would buck like crazy. The front showed me the potential, but the rear showed me the drawback. I'm not positive, but I think a properly setup rear with a stockish front would be better for speed than just the lt kit.

If you want flex, soft suspension is key. Torsions were to progressive and stiff to compress the front tires normally. Soft coils have proven to be helpful....still not SAS flex, but I am usually happy.

Rear flex is also improtant due to the limit of front flex. Yes, even with an LT kit, it isn't quite as much articulated travel as an SAS. Both systems function differently, with an SAS having the advantage in articulation. This has been discussed to no end here. If you think LT IFS will perform like an SAS, you are mistaken. But, you will get alot farther than stock.

The amount of lift cranked in generally affects the ability to flex as well. I have mine set so the arms have barely more compression than droop. About 2" lift I guess. For high speed stuff, cranking a bit more lift is nice as the extra compression soaks up the terrain. Keeping the height lower also makes the steering happier.

To anyone interested in the chaos stuff, I would suggest the kit I went with. It may not be for you, but with the recent price break and the ability to run coilovers or torsions, it is a worthy option. www.jdfabrication.com

If you have any more questions, I'll be putting armor all on my tires.

 

Coil over SAS requires links, and links require more money. Coilovers are a wash cost wise. Might be a little less expensive for a LT kit, since he's not doing jumps, he will likely not need a resevoir set up.

I agree that different is often a pain, but he knows that already. Plus, this isn't all that different, its just rare. He's talking about a proven kit, not a custom job. Coilver SAS requires lots more money, and will be even more of a pain to get to work right.

As for ORS, he'd have to buy that kit, and then buy an expensive wide axle, if he wants to stay toyota. That ORS kit does not work well at all on a stock toy housing. Then he'd have to buy another ARB. This way he gets to keep all that stuff.

He knows all the options, and i know he's not going to be swayed away from this. I think all he was looking for was a few pictures of the rear set up on a 2nd gen 4runner with a LT front. I doubt he cares much about what anyone else thinks.

 

Well, at least someone gets it.

Can't have LT tech without talking about how dumb it is, I guess.

Oh yeah here's another pic for ya, TC.

 

Troy while you are at it, check on race-dezert.com in their classifieds for the gen 2 caddy kit, im sure they have some for sale sometimes.

might save you a little money over a new kit.

 

I like the LT kits. I like different, my question would be about the uniballs. If you are putting a lot of miles on them do they hold up as well as the stock ones? I have no idea, but I am curious.

Late one night I also wondered about just swapping an entire t-100 IFS onto the 2nd gen. I don't know if this would work, but I was thinking if the CV's are longer would the A-arms be longer also? Would they fit in the Stock 4runner mounting locations?

Heck, you could probably source the T100 IFS cheap from someone SASing, you would have the drive shafts in the event the T-100 setup sucks.

I don't know, just brainstorming out loud.

 

I think the T100 shafts are longer becasue the frame is wider, and toyota used a standard width front diff. A-arms are probably similar in length. I'm just guessing on that though. You might be right.

 

your final & primary decision between LT and SAS should be based on what kind of wheelin youre going to be doing mostly. Crawling, mud pots, and creeks using 4wd should involve a SAS with coilovers. This gives you HUGE menuivering capabilities and strength if you get cought in a ditch.

LT is for someone who lives in the desert with whoops, and traveling at high speeds. Its an easy choice. Where do you live? Glamis? Get LT.

You live in Colorado? Do the CO & SAS.

 

Whoa.

Just priced all of this stuff out.

I had not realized how much this all adds up to.

I was mistaken on the prices, my apologies. this will be pricey.

 

I have about 2 years on my Gen II caddy kit (upper and lower uniballs and heimed steering). The uniballs and heims on my kit are fine. Just need to lube them every once in a while.

I got my t-100 shafts from kragen for about $100, after I returned my old ones for the core charge.

 

Thanks for the advice Blake - hadn't thought of that.

Deathrunner - thanks for the link. How do the two systems compare? I assume the welding required is for the shock hoop? Does the rest bolt on?

 

GUYS! WE ALREADY HAVE A SAS! I was the one who originally put the bug in Troy's ear to go LT. Way back many years ago he already had a LT truck and loved it. Since we already have a SAS we both thought it would be cool to go back to the LT. Yes we live in Colorado. But Colorado has tons of roads great for LT. Not even the desert kind, but just the dirt roads with not many obstacles. Anyone here know of Ted on TTORA? He is probably the most well traveled TTORA wheeler - doing the Rubicon, AZ Rocks and Moab every year (on top of Telico etc out east) Watching how much fun he had in Moab made Troy and I think we'd like to have some of that too - *even* here in SAS is king Colorado!


So this discussion here is not "Should TC go LT or SAS" - that question has been answered!

Even if it works out to being as expensive as SAS - it will still be fun because then we will have a SAS AND a LT Rig. How fun is that?

 

Everything is essentially the same as a chaos kit. The geometry is a bit improved. Everything bolts right up.

Welding is for the shock hoops. A rear frame truss CRITICAL. with the extra leverage the a arm mounts will bend for sure.

Just a head's up, the sway away coilovers are great, but the coil seat is too low and it will get real close to the axle. I have King coil seats on my swayaway coilovers. It keeps it up higher and away from the axle.

Here's the neceesities to an LT kit:

*Kit (arms, bushings, steering extensions)
*T-100 axles
*Rear truss
*Shock hoops (Brace over engine if using coilovers, I cracked a hoop even with a brace, the brace saved my butt. And I don't even beat my truck that hard)
*Coilovers (Can usually find them used pretty cheap 8 or 10", very easy to rebuild. I have done this and you can get the fluid at dirtbike shops. Charging the nitrogen is the only tricky part. EDIT: I rebuilt them before they were coilovers. I ain't messing with em now.)


Extras:

*Fiberglass (If yo plan on stuffing your tires, but I have seen guys run without it)
*Idler Brace
*Heim Steering (I went a year and a half before upgrading, it was more for piece of mind)
*Air bumps (not ideal for flex)
*Lower Uniball conversion (My lower bj's are fine, the conversion changes teh geometry slightly anyway)


How do the kits compare?
I've never owned a chaos kit, but have seen plenty up close.

The JD kit boast a fully boxed lower, I have bumped some rocks pretty hard and they still look sweet. The chaos arms have a touch more clearance though. It's atradeoff.

The JD kit let's you use either torsions, coilovers, or both. Great for building it up as you go. I had torsions and tierods for a year and a half.

Supposedly the JD arm has improved geometry helping to cradle the lower bj correctly as the suspension cycles. The chaos kit is relatively straight with a slight bend at the ball joint. The JD kit has a more gradual curve made by 2 bends. According to my installer, he noticed chaos kits do not cycle the full advertised travel until you actually go out and run it. Turns out this is because it needs to spread the cup on the lower bj to access this travel. Not the greatest. He actually had a bj bust on his kit. In fact, Total Chaos had the pic on thier site for a long time with teh rest of the pics. I don't know why. But it had his daughters making "oh no" faces next to it with the tire all poking out askiew. Needless to say, he ended up with a JD kit on his truck, yet they still feature his truck on the chaos site. The JD kit cycles correctly upon install.

Now, I'm not saying thsi to be a jerk. Both kits are great. I'm merely pointing out the things that made me decide. Supposedly the JD kit moves the wheel forward away from the pinch weld liek 1/2", but I cannot verify this.

I hope that answeres some questions.

Here's a nother pic:

 

I love all the hardcore ifs wanna be sas guys on here

And even the opinion of the 2wd guy!

 

I refuse to read all the stuff related to this.

There are a couple things to think about.

First, comparing wheel travel is not the only measure of this.

My truck drives pretty sweet with leaves. Not sure how much better it could be with coilovers. It is more a factor of uptravel which is going to be a turd regardless.

All LT gets you is travel. You still have a super sweet small diff, crappy steering and half shafts. Yeah, you can change them quick, but it is then on a 3k front end instead of a stocker.

What holds you back now? I doubt it is wheel travel.