My first shotgun!
01-03-2008, 10:22 AM
#41
Registered User
Go take a defensive arms course, then come back to me and explain to me why the guys with rifles trumped you.
A shotgun is good if you want less penetration and are concerned with it going through walls. You dont shoot people with birdshot, it pisses them off. 00 buckshot is what ya use if you like shotguns. They are only usefull: If you have only 1-2 attackers, the attackers arent wearing body armor (ts becoming quite common btw). Plus wtf do you do if there are more than 8 attackers or you miss, and your gonna miss. Reload??? Oh yea you can reload one super fast (not likely) than slapping a new magazine into that AK or similar.
My friend is a recon marine (retired) with TOD's in Iraq (gulf I and II), somalia, bosnia, plus plenty of other operations he cannot truly speak of. He prefers to carry the M14, but will do with an M16/M4 or a machine gun. YA dont see anyone with a shotgun at all in his squads.
Personal home defense gun for my buddy: An AK with a holographic site and a flashlight and his para double stack...
Same as the police swat teams dont use shotguns to much anymore. They have fancy rifles and subguns. All b/c if you have more than a few attackers your sol, not to mention if that attacker has a better gun than you.
I tell you what (not really but if I was a home invader):
Gimme your address and I will come and we will test just how well shotguns work. By the time you even realize I am there you will have 2 in the chest and 1 in he head from my 1911 or if you prefer a whole lot of rounds will have ventilated you with the AK. Capacity vs capacity you cant win, the numbers done lie these days.
A shotgun is good if you want less penetration and are concerned with it going through walls. You dont shoot people with birdshot, it pisses them off. 00 buckshot is what ya use if you like shotguns. They are only usefull: If you have only 1-2 attackers, the attackers arent wearing body armor (ts becoming quite common btw). Plus wtf do you do if there are more than 8 attackers or you miss, and your gonna miss. Reload??? Oh yea you can reload one super fast (not likely) than slapping a new magazine into that AK or similar.
My friend is a recon marine (retired) with TOD's in Iraq (gulf I and II), somalia, bosnia, plus plenty of other operations he cannot truly speak of. He prefers to carry the M14, but will do with an M16/M4 or a machine gun. YA dont see anyone with a shotgun at all in his squads.
Personal home defense gun for my buddy: An AK with a holographic site and a flashlight and his para double stack...
Same as the police swat teams dont use shotguns to much anymore. They have fancy rifles and subguns. All b/c if you have more than a few attackers your sol, not to mention if that attacker has a better gun than you.
I tell you what (not really but if I was a home invader):
Gimme your address and I will come and we will test just how well shotguns work. By the time you even realize I am there you will have 2 in the chest and 1 in he head from my 1911 or if you prefer a whole lot of rounds will have ventilated you with the AK. Capacity vs capacity you cant win, the numbers done lie these days.
Last edited by CJM; 01-03-2008 at 10:25 AM.
01-03-2008, 10:56 AM
#42
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back in college I got to shoot some sort of 12ga semi-auto AK with a muzzle suppressor. I shot a 2oz slug out of it, felt like i was shooting a 9mm. Incredible.
I'll have to bring out my rem express mag so we can go shooting.
I'll have to bring out my rem express mag so we can go shooting.
01-03-2008, 05:11 PM
#43
Registered User
Go take a defensive arms course, then come back to me and explain to me why the guys with rifles trumped you.
A shotgun is good if you want less penetration and are concerned with it going through walls. You dont shoot people with birdshot, it pisses them off. 00 buckshot is what ya use if you like shotguns. They are only usefull: If you have only 1-2 attackers, the attackers arent wearing body armor (ts becoming quite common btw). Plus wtf do you do if there are more than 8 attackers or you miss, and your gonna miss. Reload??? Oh yea you can reload one super fast (not likely) than slapping a new magazine into that AK or similar.
My friend is a recon marine (retired) with TOD's in Iraq (gulf I and II), somalia, bosnia, plus plenty of other operations he cannot truly speak of. He prefers to carry the M14, but will do with an M16/M4 or a machine gun. YA dont see anyone with a shotgun at all in his squads.
Personal home defense gun for my buddy: An AK with a holographic site and a flashlight and his para double stack...
Same as the police swat teams dont use shotguns to much anymore. They have fancy rifles and subguns. All b/c if you have more than a few attackers your sol, not to mention if that attacker has a better gun than you.
I tell you what (not really but if I was a home invader):
Gimme your address and I will come and we will test just how well shotguns work. By the time you even realize I am there you will have 2 in the chest and 1 in he head from my 1911 or if you prefer a whole lot of rounds will have ventilated you with the AK. Capacity vs capacity you cant win, the numbers done lie these days.
A shotgun is good if you want less penetration and are concerned with it going through walls. You dont shoot people with birdshot, it pisses them off. 00 buckshot is what ya use if you like shotguns. They are only usefull: If you have only 1-2 attackers, the attackers arent wearing body armor (ts becoming quite common btw). Plus wtf do you do if there are more than 8 attackers or you miss, and your gonna miss. Reload??? Oh yea you can reload one super fast (not likely) than slapping a new magazine into that AK or similar.
My friend is a recon marine (retired) with TOD's in Iraq (gulf I and II), somalia, bosnia, plus plenty of other operations he cannot truly speak of. He prefers to carry the M14, but will do with an M16/M4 or a machine gun. YA dont see anyone with a shotgun at all in his squads.
Personal home defense gun for my buddy: An AK with a holographic site and a flashlight and his para double stack...
Same as the police swat teams dont use shotguns to much anymore. They have fancy rifles and subguns. All b/c if you have more than a few attackers your sol, not to mention if that attacker has a better gun than you.
I tell you what (not really but if I was a home invader):
Gimme your address and I will come and we will test just how well shotguns work. By the time you even realize I am there you will have 2 in the chest and 1 in he head from my 1911 or if you prefer a whole lot of rounds will have ventilated you with the AK. Capacity vs capacity you cant win, the numbers done lie these days.
Some of the things you say are a little absurd. More than 8 attackers? I don't live in the white house. If >8 people want to invade my home with body armor and they are armed to the teeth, you or I arn't going to stop them in all probability. I like to be prepared for anything and everyrhing too (I'm an Eagle Scout) but realisticly you are going to face 1 or 2 attackers.
In periodicals I read that report on home invasion and gun owners defending themselves I have never once seen a squad of criminals held off and killed by an armed home owner, or for that matter herd of the criminals even doing such a thing. It's not impossible but it's not likely to happen, at all.
Your friend seems like quite the BA. Perhaps his preference stems from a mastery of the rifle few of us will ever achieve? The same could be said for SWAT/SRT. The 870 is still them most popular patrol long gun but AR type rifles/carbines are popular as well. I doubt the capacity of them was the primary factor in adopting them in various depts.
It's also worth mentioning that in WWII the American "Trench Broom" (a 12 GA. shotgun) was so devestating in close quarter combat Hitler himself attempted to have it declared as a weapon prohibited from use.
Also, your little "challenge" is a paradox in and of it self. You preach capacity but say that you can place a double tap and a head shot before you are even noticed? Why would the "small" capacity of a shotgun be a problem for someone such as yourself or another expert marksman then? It only takes one to do the job if you do it well.
Furthermore, it's odd that you mention you would be using a 1911 .45. The 1911 is one of the smallest capacity handguns in a semi auto. You can get magazines that hold more rounds but they extend beyond the grip and are unwieldly. The fact is, most 1911s are on par with shotguns capacity wise. They are faster to reload however. (There are a few "hi-cap" 1911s, but there are also magazine fed shotguns, up to 20 rounds or so as well.)
The truth is the vast majority of us may be avid shooters and be good shots but, the shotgun remains king in home defense because it is an easy weapon to use. Its aiming in forgiving, its operation simple and its punch, deadly. When the average citizen is pressed into a situation where they must defend themselves and others with a firearm, a suitable shotgun with a short overall length and a capacity of 6 or more is the ideal weapon.
On a final note, overpenatration IS a concern. Its easy to say on the internet "it's not my problem" but miss your target and kill a neighbor, family member or other innocent and your tune would change. Unfortunetly a buckshot load is not much better than many rifles in this area, check "the box-o-truth" website for some good real worls tests.
Lamm
01-03-2008, 06:35 PM
#44
Some shotguns have a perfect place in home defense. I would take this over my pistol or my ak any day. And with eight shots I am not worried in the slightest about not having enough rounds for home invasion. For that matter if it doesn't work out then I always have some others just in case. 
01-03-2008, 09:26 PM
#45
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Go take a defensive arms course, then come back to me and explain to me why the guys with rifles trumped you.
A shotgun is good if you want less penetration and are concerned with it going through walls. You dont shoot people with birdshot, it pisses them off. 00 buckshot is what ya use if you like shotguns. They are only usefull: If you have only 1-2 attackers, the attackers arent wearing body armor (ts becoming quite common btw). Plus wtf do you do if there are more than 8 attackers or you miss, and your gonna miss. Reload??? Oh yea you can reload one super fast (not likely) than slapping a new magazine into that AK or similar.
My friend is a recon marine (retired) with TOD's in Iraq (gulf I and II), somalia, bosnia, plus plenty of other operations he cannot truly speak of. He prefers to carry the M14, but will do with an M16/M4 or a machine gun. YA dont see anyone with a shotgun at all in his squads.
Personal home defense gun for my buddy: An AK with a holographic site and a flashlight and his para double stack...
Same as the police swat teams dont use shotguns to much anymore. They have fancy rifles and subguns. All b/c if you have more than a few attackers your sol, not to mention if that attacker has a better gun than you.
I tell you what (not really but if I was a home invader):
Gimme your address and I will come and we will test just how well shotguns work. By the time you even realize I am there you will have 2 in the chest and 1 in he head from my 1911 or if you prefer a whole lot of rounds will have ventilated you with the AK. Capacity vs capacity you cant win, the numbers done lie these days.
A shotgun is good if you want less penetration and are concerned with it going through walls. You dont shoot people with birdshot, it pisses them off. 00 buckshot is what ya use if you like shotguns. They are only usefull: If you have only 1-2 attackers, the attackers arent wearing body armor (ts becoming quite common btw). Plus wtf do you do if there are more than 8 attackers or you miss, and your gonna miss. Reload??? Oh yea you can reload one super fast (not likely) than slapping a new magazine into that AK or similar.
My friend is a recon marine (retired) with TOD's in Iraq (gulf I and II), somalia, bosnia, plus plenty of other operations he cannot truly speak of. He prefers to carry the M14, but will do with an M16/M4 or a machine gun. YA dont see anyone with a shotgun at all in his squads.
Personal home defense gun for my buddy: An AK with a holographic site and a flashlight and his para double stack...
Same as the police swat teams dont use shotguns to much anymore. They have fancy rifles and subguns. All b/c if you have more than a few attackers your sol, not to mention if that attacker has a better gun than you.
I tell you what (not really but if I was a home invader):
Gimme your address and I will come and we will test just how well shotguns work. By the time you even realize I am there you will have 2 in the chest and 1 in he head from my 1911 or if you prefer a whole lot of rounds will have ventilated you with the AK. Capacity vs capacity you cant win, the numbers done lie these days.
AHHHHHHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Dude, you CANNOT be serious! You very, very clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe somebody told you this at one point in your life, or you got this information from your favorite action movie, but you might as well quit digging yourself this hole before it gets any worse.
Let me start off by saying that I have taken a "defensive arms course." Actually, I've taken several, very rigorous courses that aren't for n00bs. You sound like you have little or no experience shooting any firearm period, or maybe even a pellet gun for that matter. Seriously, I'm not just trying to attack for the hell of it. You just come off, like the other dude said, like a know it all and tough guy who is really just speaking out of his ***.
Birdshot just pisses them off? Sorry dude, the only words that can describe this statement I can't say on this forum. 'Ludicrous' is somewhat accurate.
I don't care if your friend is a former Force Recon Marine. That doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. You want to know why nobody in his squad has a shotgun? BECAUSE THEY ARE CLOSE RANGE FIREARMS. That is the only reason. They can't reach out and touch you.
Yes, if you are being attacked by a whole platoon of men, then yes, perhaps the shotgun isn't the ideal defense tool. But we are talking about home defense, not some fantasy raid on your house that you got the idea from in a movie.
And yes, if I gave you my address, and you came to my house, I assure you, Mr. Tough Man Uber Mercenary Tactical Weapons Expert that you will be on the losing end.
No hard feeling, it's just when I see such ridiculous disinformation being spewed, and acting like it's pure fact instead of humble opinion, it needs to be addressed.
Last edited by youngbuck; 01-03-2008 at 09:28 PM.
07-27-2011, 05:52 PM
#46
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Over penetration is a worry of the local PD, not you! If you do live in an apartment, hope no more than 9 people attack you at once and you hit all of them (thats the most capacity any shotgun has). A pistol is a much better choice if your worried about shooting your neighbors.
As for capacity, what idiot uses a hunting rifle for home defense-you want something that can hold more than 5 rounds..
Shotguns have there place, problem is you gotta think about them in a defense role. Got 5 shots in most shotguns, maybe you got a carrier and have 5 more (takes a wee bit time to reload vs a simple magazine change). Suppose 3 armed thugs break into your home, trust me you aint gonna hit every shot in the heat of the moment. So you miss 3x, and now only got 2 shots. Meanwhile these suckers have knives (distances close VERY quickly) your shotgun is worthless now, you get 2 of them great...still got #3 at ya.
If ya had a good pistol or a rifle you got at least 10 shots, but if you were smart..30 round mag.
Ya can argue all day long about overpentration, power, and shot placement. When it all boils down to it, you vs them and you need alot of firepower.. Unless of course you get lucky and they run away.. Course if they are smart (like most criminals are these days) they got body armor on and your shotgun is WORTHLESS.
As for capacity, what idiot uses a hunting rifle for home defense-you want something that can hold more than 5 rounds..
Shotguns have there place, problem is you gotta think about them in a defense role. Got 5 shots in most shotguns, maybe you got a carrier and have 5 more (takes a wee bit time to reload vs a simple magazine change). Suppose 3 armed thugs break into your home, trust me you aint gonna hit every shot in the heat of the moment. So you miss 3x, and now only got 2 shots. Meanwhile these suckers have knives (distances close VERY quickly) your shotgun is worthless now, you get 2 of them great...still got #3 at ya.
If ya had a good pistol or a rifle you got at least 10 shots, but if you were smart..30 round mag.
Ya can argue all day long about overpentration, power, and shot placement. When it all boils down to it, you vs them and you need alot of firepower.. Unless of course you get lucky and they run away.. Course if they are smart (like most criminals are these days) they got body armor on and your shotgun is WORTHLESS.
Ok, first of all, how many times do you get robbed by 9+ people?
Secondly, let's say you're robbing a house, you and your buddy have knives, you hear a shotgun get racked, and then your buddy gets blasted to kingdom come, are you really gonna stick around?
Thirdly, over-penetration is a problem for you. What about your wife/kids? Or, maybe, just maybe, you have a conscious and you think about your neighbors and their kids.
Fourth, maybe its just me, but I don't imagine myself missing much in a dark hallway with a scatter gun.
Fifth, that idiot using his 30-06 as his self defense might just shoot it from the hip well enough to be accurate within 10 ft (furthest I see a burglar being from me in my apartment), I know if I had a rifle and someone was within 10 ft, I wouldn't be using the scope to put holes in them.
Shot gun is the best home defense gun there is period. Why do you think when cops raid a house, the guy with the 12ga usually goes in first? If you really think you're gonna get attacked by a gang of 10 people, buy a saiga 12, convert it, and carry a 20 round drum, or several 5rd mags. Better than any rifle close distance, "in the heat of the moment".
07-27-2011, 06:06 PM
#47
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Dude, I think this has been said before but when we get to talking about guns you come off as a know it all tough guy, who seemingly dosen't know it all.
Some of the things you say are a little absurd. More than 8 attackers? I don't live in the white house. If >8 people want to invade my home with body armor and they are armed to the teeth, you or I arn't going to stop them in all probability. I like to be prepared for anything and everyrhing too (I'm an Eagle Scout) but realisticly you are going to face 1 or 2 attackers.
In periodicals I read that report on home invasion and gun owners defending themselves I have never once seen a squad of criminals held off and killed by an armed home owner, or for that matter herd of the criminals even doing such a thing. It's not impossible but it's not likely to happen, at all.
Your friend seems like quite the BA. Perhaps his preference stems from a mastery of the rifle few of us will ever achieve? The same could be said for SWAT/SRT. The 870 is still them most popular patrol long gun but AR type rifles/carbines are popular as well. I doubt the capacity of them was the primary factor in adopting them in various depts.
It's also worth mentioning that in WWII the American "Trench Broom" (a 12 GA. shotgun) was so devestating in close quarter combat Hitler himself attempted to have it declared as a weapon prohibited from use.
Also, your little "challenge" is a paradox in and of it self. You preach capacity but say that you can place a double tap and a head shot before you are even noticed? Why would the "small" capacity of a shotgun be a problem for someone such as yourself or another expert marksman then? It only takes one to do the job if you do it well.
Furthermore, it's odd that you mention you would be using a 1911 .45. The 1911 is one of the smallest capacity handguns in a semi auto. You can get magazines that hold more rounds but they extend beyond the grip and are unwieldly. The fact is, most 1911s are on par with shotguns capacity wise. They are faster to reload however. (There are a few "hi-cap" 1911s, but there are also magazine fed shotguns, up to 20 rounds or so as well.)
The truth is the vast majority of us may be avid shooters and be good shots but, the shotgun remains king in home defense because it is an easy weapon to use. Its aiming in forgiving, its operation simple and its punch, deadly. When the average citizen is pressed into a situation where they must defend themselves and others with a firearm, a suitable shotgun with a short overall length and a capacity of 6 or more is the ideal weapon.
On a final note, overpenatration IS a concern. Its easy to say on the internet "it's not my problem" but miss your target and kill a neighbor, family member or other innocent and your tune would change. Unfortunetly a buckshot load is not much better than many rifles in this area, check "the box-o-truth" website for some good real worls tests.
Lamm
Some of the things you say are a little absurd. More than 8 attackers? I don't live in the white house. If >8 people want to invade my home with body armor and they are armed to the teeth, you or I arn't going to stop them in all probability. I like to be prepared for anything and everyrhing too (I'm an Eagle Scout) but realisticly you are going to face 1 or 2 attackers.
In periodicals I read that report on home invasion and gun owners defending themselves I have never once seen a squad of criminals held off and killed by an armed home owner, or for that matter herd of the criminals even doing such a thing. It's not impossible but it's not likely to happen, at all.
Your friend seems like quite the BA. Perhaps his preference stems from a mastery of the rifle few of us will ever achieve? The same could be said for SWAT/SRT. The 870 is still them most popular patrol long gun but AR type rifles/carbines are popular as well. I doubt the capacity of them was the primary factor in adopting them in various depts.
It's also worth mentioning that in WWII the American "Trench Broom" (a 12 GA. shotgun) was so devestating in close quarter combat Hitler himself attempted to have it declared as a weapon prohibited from use.
Also, your little "challenge" is a paradox in and of it self. You preach capacity but say that you can place a double tap and a head shot before you are even noticed? Why would the "small" capacity of a shotgun be a problem for someone such as yourself or another expert marksman then? It only takes one to do the job if you do it well.
Furthermore, it's odd that you mention you would be using a 1911 .45. The 1911 is one of the smallest capacity handguns in a semi auto. You can get magazines that hold more rounds but they extend beyond the grip and are unwieldly. The fact is, most 1911s are on par with shotguns capacity wise. They are faster to reload however. (There are a few "hi-cap" 1911s, but there are also magazine fed shotguns, up to 20 rounds or so as well.)
The truth is the vast majority of us may be avid shooters and be good shots but, the shotgun remains king in home defense because it is an easy weapon to use. Its aiming in forgiving, its operation simple and its punch, deadly. When the average citizen is pressed into a situation where they must defend themselves and others with a firearm, a suitable shotgun with a short overall length and a capacity of 6 or more is the ideal weapon.
On a final note, overpenatration IS a concern. Its easy to say on the internet "it's not my problem" but miss your target and kill a neighbor, family member or other innocent and your tune would change. Unfortunetly a buckshot load is not much better than many rifles in this area, check "the box-o-truth" website for some good real worls tests.
Lamm
