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Old 07-22-2004, 07:35 PM   #61
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Here is a tale of two cities: one that banned handguns and one that required guns. Guess which town enjoyed a plunge in crime.
In June 1981, Morton Grove, Ill., a northern suburb of Chicago, passed an ordinance banning handguns. In reaction, Kennesaw, Ga., a northern suburb of Atlanta, passed an ordinance requiring heads of households "to maintain a firearm" and ammunition "to provide for the civil defense" and "protect the general welfare of the City and its inhabitants."

"Some people seem to think our residents are not armed," Morton Grove Police Chief George Incledon, told United Press International on Tuesday. The chief pointed out that the law did not prohibit ownership of shotguns or rifles, and that gun collectors were exempt.

Many citizens prefer shotguns to handguns for home defense. Incledon did not define "gun collector." Morton Grove residents could store their handguns outside the village limits or at a licensed gun club.

Moreover, Incledon recalled, out of a population of 25,000, only "a few people, maybe 10," surrendered handguns to police in the months after the law went into effect.

Similarly, Kennesaw's law provides so many loopholes that, in effect, no one is compelled to obey it. Convicted felons are, of course, excluded. Also exempt are those "who suffer a physical disability [undefined] which would prohibit them from using such a firearm" and those who "conscientiously oppose firearms as a result of religious doctrine or belief [also undefined]." Inhabitants may claim exemptions for moral or financial reasons, said Detective Cpl. Craig Graydon, a Kennesaw Police Department spokesman, in a phone interview Tuesday.

According to a National Rifle Association document, the law was not expected to increase gun ownership. "It was expected that publicity surrounding the ordinance would warn criminals that residents were capable of protecting themselves and their community and would do so with the government's blessing," the document said.

The results?

Not much of anything in Morton Grove. "We were fortunate to have a low rate of violent crime before the ordinance was passed, and we are fortunate now that the rate is still low," Incledon told UPI.

But Kennesaw's crime rate plummeted. In fact, the number of some crimes declined amid soaring population growth. For example, in figures the city provided to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, Kennesaw had 54 burglaries in 1981 the year before the gun ordinance with a population of 5,242. In 1999, with a population of 19,000, only 36 burglaries were reported.

The rate of violent crime is approximately four times lower than the state and national rates, Kennesaw's Crime Statistics Report said. "Violent crime is almost nonexistent in residential neighborhoods," Graydon told UPI. The detective, who has been with the police department since 1986, said the isolated exceptions take place in motels or in commercial areas.

Graydon said he has lived in the area since 1979 and has heard no open opposition to the gun law. This remains the case even though most of Kennesaw's newcomers are from northern states.

Asked whether the ordinance has attracted new people to Kennesaw, Graydon said: "Not specifically the law itself, but quite a few people cite the low crime rate, which a lot of people do attribute, at least in part, to the gun law."

The detective said Kennesaw used state criteria for carrying a concealed handgun. "It's not that difficult" to get the license, he said. Unlike some other jurisdictions, Georgia does not require permit holders to submit the serial numbers of their handguns to the police. "We don't register firearms down here," Graydon said.
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:41 PM   #62
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"What the Media Won't Tell You!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preventing law-abiding citizens from carrying firearms for self-defense does not end violent crime - it just makes victims more vulnerable! Society benefits from ordinary people who accept the responsibilities of firearm ownership - not from gun-control.



SELF-DEFENSE & CRIME
In 1990, a convicted felon could expect to serve the following prison time: 1.8 years for murder, 60 days for rape, 23 days for robbery, 6.7 days for arson, and 6.4 days for aggravated assault. According to a U.S. Justice Department survey in 17 states, of felony offenders placed on probation in 1986, 43% were re-arrested on other felony charges within 3 years of their release. (1)
Passage of the Brady Law in 1994 has not been accompanied by a statistically significant decline in murder or robbery. It has been associated with significant increases in rape and aggravated assaults, presumably from the increased difficulty encountered by law-abiding citizens in obtaining firearms for self-defense. (2)

In 1987, Florida's concealed-carry law went from "may-issue" to "shall-issue" (also known as "Right-To-Carry", or RTC). This meant that issuing authorities must provide a concealed-carry handgun license to all qualified applicants. Other states followed suit, and modeled their own RTC laws after Florida's. On 4/7/98 (the latest date such figures were available), Florida's Dept of Law Enforcement announced that the state's murder rate had dropped, again, in 1997, just as it had in each of the 5 previous years. The additional drop marked the lowest murder rate experienced by "Dodge City East" since 1933. (3)

In 1982, Kennesaw GA (pop. 17,000) passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in their home, exempting those with criminal records or religious objections. Seven months after it took effect, the residential burglary rate dropped 89%, vs. 10.4% statewide. Since 1982, only 2 murders have occurred (1984 and 1989), both committed with knives. (4)


Allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns reduces violent crime. The reduction corresponds very closely to the number of concealed-handgun licenses issued.
On average, murder rates in states banning concealed-carry are 127% higher than in states having the most liberal carry laws.

The net value of private firearm ownership - the dollar savings from defensive gun use, minus the costs of "gun-violence" - has been estimated at up to $38.9 billion, annually. (8)
In 1856, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that local law-enforcement had no duty to protect individuals, but only a general duty to enforce the laws. (10) In 1982, the U.S. Court of Appeals held that "there is no Constitutional right to be protected by the state against criminals or madmen. The Constitution does not require Federal or State government to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order."(11)

In Great Britain, handguns are outlawed, and possession of long guns is severely restricted. Yet, despite strict gun-control, as of 1995, rates for robbery, assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft in England and Wales had surpassed those here in the States. On average, for all 4 crimes, English rates were double U.S. rates. (12)




MASS SHOOTINGS &
"GUN-FREE" SCHOOL ZONES
Deaths and injuries from mass public shootings (like Jonesboro AR, and Littleton CO) fall dramatically after RTC concealed-handgun laws are enacted. Where data was available both before and after passage of such laws, the average death rate from mass shootings plummeted by up to 91% after such laws took effect, and injuries dropped by over 80%! (2,13)
Armed with a hunting rifle, 16-year-old Luke Woodham killed his ex-girlfriend and her close friend, then wounded 7 other students, in 1997 at a high school in Pearl, Mississippi. Assistant Principal Joel Myrick retrieved a handgun from his car, and interrupted Woodham's shooting spree, holding him at bay until police arrived. Earlier that morning, Woodham had stabbed his mother to death. (14)

A similar script played out in 1998 in Edinboro, Pennsylvania, when local merchant James Strand used his shotgun to "coax" 14-year old Andrew Wurst into dropping his gun, and surrendering to police. Wurst had just killed one teacher, wounded another and two classmates. (14)

The recent rash of public school shootings...raise[s] questions about the unintentional consequences of laws.

The five public school shootings [which occurred during the 1997-98 school year] took place after a 1995 federal law banned guns (including permitted concealed handguns) within a thousand feet of a school.
It is interesting to note that during the 1977 to 1995 period [of our study], 15 shootings took place in schools in states without right-to-carry laws and only one took place in a state with this type of law. There were 19 deaths and 97 injuries in states without the law, while there was one death and two injuries in states with the law." (13)

A July 1993 U.S. Department of Justice study found that "boys who own legal firearms...have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use [than those who obtained them illegally] and are even slightly less delinquent than nonowners of guns." It concluded that, "for legal gunowners, socialization appears to take place in the family; for illegal gunowners, it appears to take place 'on the street' ". (15)

The possibility exists that attempts to outlaw guns from schools, no matter how well meaning, may have produced perverse effects.



ACCIDENTS & SUICIDES
In 1994, fatal firearms accidents dropped 11% from 1993 figures, to the lowest annual number since record-keeping began in 1903. They dropped even lower by almost 7% in 1995. Motor vehicle accidents, falls, fires, drownings, poisonings, suffocation, and other accidents all accounted for more deaths than did firearm accidents. Among children aged 0-14 years, there were 185 fatal firearms accidents, vs. 500 per year in the mid-1970s. (16)
In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages 0-19. While firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1, the risk of drowning in a pool is nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident. From ages 0-5, the risk of drowning skyrockets to 500 times the risk from a gun! (16,17)

"Trigger-lock" laws don't equal safety. While California has such a law on the books, it saw a 12% increase in fatal firearm accidents in 1994. Texas doesn't have one, and experienced a 28% decrease, instead. (16) "Trigger-locks" do, however, render guns inaccessible for self-defense.

Accident and suicide rates are unaffected by the passage of Right-To-Carry concealed handgun laws. (2)

Suicide rates fluctuate independently of gun control laws and gun ownership. Banning guns will not affect the suicide rate - other equally deadly implements would only be substituted in their place. (18)




THE U.S. CONSTITUTION
The scholarship on the 2nd Amendment overwhelmingly agrees that it protects an individual right to keep and bear arms, and not simply the right to arm the "militia". (19) In 1982, the Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution evaluated the historical record, and unanimously concluded the same. (20)
On March 30, 1999, Texas Federal Judge Sam Cummings ruled that the Second Amendment right to bear arms is a protected individual right - not just a right belonging to an organized militia: "A historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right". Cummings further noted that the Supreme Court ruled in 1990 (in U.S. vs. Verdugo-Urquidez) that the "people" protected in the Second Amendment is the same "people" protected in the Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. (22)
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:58 PM   #63
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i'm for gun control... which is using both hands to hit your targets...
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:07 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottiac
Observation 1:
I've travelled in switzerland where every citizen has an automatic weapon in their closet, and they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Counterpoint, they have mandatory military service, which leads to them knowing what they are doing with them.
in kalif, those "lucky" (read: politicians or friends of politicians) enough to GET A CCW, do have to take certain courses.

it's not like you apply for a license and same day they give it to you...

one haven in kalif is tehama county: http://www.tehamaso.org/ccw.htm

now remember, that page is the first link on the sheriffs official web page. so one day i decide to write to the sheriff saying what a cool policy that is. and i asked if his county has turned into the wild west.

of course he said no...
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:11 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood150
My point here is, how many of those 10,000 were killed while breaking the law? Also, how many were gang bangers, drug dealers, rapists, scum of the earth, etc whom darwin should have eliminated long ago?

Oh, and here's where I got my numbers: http://www.guncite.com/
going from memory from NRA-ILA website, the numbers included 16-18 year olds in calculating "children" deaths due to guns. and guess what they were members of...
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:14 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackTLC
How's this for sad irony?

ONLY LEO can possess a handgun in the District Of Columbia.

what's funny is a stupid politician who was standing around when klinton signed the AW ban bill, was interviewed saying lucky he ALREADY had his AR in his DC townhome... until someone whispered to him that it's been in the books for years previous, that it was illegal to do so...

the dude quietly disappeared from the signing...
:pat:
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:16 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackTLC
Guns don't kill people... people kill people. .
actually, it's the extreme shock, damage to organs and blood loss that kills people...
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:19 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waskillywabbit
So where are the pics of chicks shooting guns in this thread like the other one?

you've seen this story, right?

http://www.sportshooter.com/events/swedishbikinis.htm
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:28 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_98SR5
poboy:

whoa, hold on there! soooo wrong. I dont know if you really meant this as a joke, but look at recent history in the 20th century. totalitarianism, whether communism, nazism, facism, dictatorships, etc in all parts of the world resulted in consfication of guns. consfication allowed govts to brutally murder their populace at will.

take for example, nazi germany where adolf hitler enaced and passed legislation to disarm jewish germans from owning firearms (http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/nwl_1573_1938.htm). and as we know from history, they were 6 million less by 1945.

other countries (easily found on the internet):

Soviet Union; gun control law enacted in 1929 (Article 182, Penal Code) = est 20M deaths (i think this number is too high but even halved is a huge number)

China; gun control law enacted in 1935 and 1957 (Articles 186-7, Penal Code
Article 9, Security Law, 10/22) = est death toll 27M

Responsible private gun ownership keeps govt in check. Responsible private gun ownership keeps hoodlums, thieves, murderers, etc in check. Irresponsible gun ownership just results in needless death. Thus, my conclusion is that the only way to curb gun violence is to enforce:

- the over 50,000 existing laws pertaining to mandatory jail time
- hold accountable all judges all over the nation who decrease time in jail for the use of gun-related crimes

As for those tragedies you speak of John, yes, it is a tragedy. But such is human life and things happen. As callous as this statement might seem to you, there are plenty of tragedies to go around in all intentional and unintentional forms.

Lastly if you choose, pick up any issue of "American Rifleman" magazine (an NRA publication) and in the front pages, there's stories of how regular, everyday Americans use firearms to prevent criminal activity. Stuff that will never make the local TV or newspaper.

Bob

Haha...yeah bob I meant it as a total joke. Thats why I put a laughing face to the first time I said comunism. I should have put it somehting in the second time I said it too. There would be less murders though..by citizens. I dont think killings by the police are included in teh 10,000 in the US...so I wasnt really thinking of putting them in wiht the rest.

So much to reply to, BUT IM GETTING MARRIED SATURDAY...so Ive gots to go. Anyway, if this thread is still alive when I get back in a week...I'll make some replies. Just want to reiterate that I am the son of an ER surgeon who left home seemingly every other night when I was growing up to attend to some muder on the streets. I also stated that if you need protection...then by all means have it. I also stated if you are into the whole sporting apeal...go for it. I just dont like all the Joe Schmoes owning guns just to own one and have it under their beds. I just dont see the point. I completely understand the whole responsibility thing and the self defense and whatnot..I have no clue what the numbers are and the ones you showed me look great. I would like to know what was the situation that required a gun for self defense?? Then I wonder if guns were removed from the situation completely (say a robber pulled a gun on you and you shot him with yours...what if neither had a gun to begin with?)...would leathal force be needed still?


Quote:
You're thinking like a law abiding citizen, not like a criminal. If I were a criminal, I'd just walk outside and steal a car.
Actually, I am very much so thinking like a criminal. The chances of you getting caught in a stolen car are a LOT higher than a gun. I spent a LONG time in Detroit selling car stereo's on eight mile. We had 1-2 arrests a week in our parking lot b/c of stolen vehicles. It's very easy to run the plates on a car and find out it's stolen. Big risk factor there...plus have you ever tried to run over someone wiht a car? It's kind of hard if they know it's coming...very easy to step infront of a light post or run inside.

AHH...I gotta go, the Fiance is getting mad...last comment: YALL HAVE A GOOD WEEK! I'll be in havin fun in the sun down south somewhere
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:44 PM   #70
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John,

No doubt there are plenty of schmuck in this nation w/ rotten hearts and lots of guns. Our politicians need to enable our city govts to enable their LE to get their guns and not mine.

Good luck and enjoy the big day

Bob
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:59 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldivinag

I've seen the story and I was there...... I belonged to the SWPL.....

Last edited by BruceTS; 07-22-2004 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:04 PM   #72
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:18 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saigon1965
I am pro guns, unfortunately I live in California.
why "unfortunately?" i am beginning to commence to start to think about my first gun and i am assuming we have strict(er) gun laws here by your post.
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Old 07-23-2004, 05:18 AM   #74
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Gotta love it...




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Old 07-23-2004, 06:22 AM   #75
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(from another source - I'd like to see the REAL numbers for a recent year if someone has the time to look them up)

Physicians vs Gun Owners

Physicians:
a. The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health & Human Services)

Now think about this:

Guns:
a. The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do.

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!

Last edited by bamachem; 07-23-2004 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 07-23-2004, 06:25 AM   #76
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Bama-

DAMN. Never heard that one. WOW.

J
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Old 07-23-2004, 01:29 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by bamachem

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!
are these ASSAULT type doctors?
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Old 07-23-2004, 03:01 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldivinag

Funny cartoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahriman
why "unfortunately?" i am beginning to commence to start to think about my first gun and i am assuming we have strict(er) gun laws here by your post.

The gun laws in CA seem to set precedence across the country. There are many that believe that lawmakers are trying to push out gun enthusiasts/businesses by piling laws on top of laws.

Last edited by Tacoma Dude; 07-23-2004 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 07-23-2004, 03:10 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamachem
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!


you couldn't have told me this before I graduated from med school ..
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Old 07-23-2004, 03:27 PM   #80
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LOL... Dont' worry, I'm not against Docs... My father-in-law is a surgeon and my wife is a RN...
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