Interestingly enough, I just got off the phone with Shane, who is out at the planned site of the event. He says that there was a group of 100 camped all weekend in that location. He knows, because he talked to the last of them as they were leaving and he was arriving. They did not have any problems.

 

Enchantment Nat. Forest Area/ Jonny Creek above Leavenworth

 

I personally know the hell that is dealing with the forestry service when organizing events. I'm beginning to think a requirement to be in the Forestry Service is a stamp on your resume from previous employers that says "doesn't work well with others" or "avoids all human contact".

Also people have told me the Adventure Pass that is "required" is actually a test program. You don't actually have to pay or pay fines. The test program is going on to see "if" it were "real", would people pay? Big scam! I don't know if this is true or not but my buddy doesn't buy passes or pay fines. No DMV issues.

Maybe you can go to a higher authority? This sounds so stupid if they ruin the outing.

 

So many of them come right out of frestry school and into that job that I imagine this is a "nurture" rather than a "nature" thing. They just get used to their job.

Intersting. Based upon the stuff I am reading in my web searches, that news would not suprise me.

I am writing emails like a mad man.

 

Don't give up. Sounds like they think someone is making money off of this. I assume this is not the case. Do you ask for donations anywhere? Is it maybe because somone might be selling merchandise?

I say, find someplace outside the NF to camp if possible. They can't fine you for driving through the forest in groups. Don't set up a lemonade stand during lunch stops and brakes and you should be fine. Its not illegal to be in the National Forest with some friends. They have no ground to stand on if there are no transactions taking place on their land.

 

I'm just astonished about the whole thing. As a group, you we've tried to go about this the right way, with warnings about fire safety, waivers, etc. I believe that we're actually being punished because of this. If we had just showed up en masse this weekend, they wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. However, because this was an organized/sponsored? event, they want someone to make an example out of. Although my impulse was to just say screw it, I'm heading down there, my guess is that they're on the lookout now for a large group of Toyotas. They've given us a warning, in writing, that our event is not approved. My guess is that there's enough flexibility in the law that the Rangers can make decisions based on "discretion." Unless Rob has in writing that a permit is not required, the conversations with Mike would probably not hold up in court. So, my gut tells me not to risk going to the Naches this weekend.

On the other hand, I'm itching to go offroading so bad that I'm incredibly depressed about this whole thing, and am up for offroading anyplace, anywhere this weekend.

 

Their mail is filled with contradictions on this. For example, Mike says:

"We do not require permits based on the commercial nature of an activity. A non profit group needs a permit just like a group which is making a profit. Any group which provides a service or whose activities have a potential to affect a Forest resource (trails, campground, animals, water, trees, placement of signs, etc. ) is required to receive a permit before the event begins. On this District you must apply for the permit a minimum of 180 days before the proposed event will begin."

Yet commercial aspects are called out repeatedly in the regulations as a reason for needing a permit and not-for-profit gatherings are called out as not requiring one.

Elsewhere in the mail, he states that simply by organizing the event we are "providing a service" as is called out in the above quote. So I suspect it's that element that he is hanging his hat upon. Since we are organized, we are somehow no longer in the not-for-profit category.

"Your internet site I have pulled clearly demonstrates that your event is organized and that you are providing the service of organizing those activities for participants who are signing up."

They have been informed time and time again that not a penny is changing hands at this event for ANYTHING. No concessions, no nothing. In addition, the clubs involved do not collect dues in any way.

 

I am going to for sure go camping above Leavenworth starting Saturday morning until Sunday afternoon. I plan on going as close to the Enchantment Nat. Forest as I can get. Its the Jonny Creek area and very nice. I am giving invites to all that want to join.

 

How about Evan's Creek? I was there last weekend, and it was a blast. I am thinking of going again this weekend and camping this time. I camped out there in May, and it was pretty cool there~there was still snow on the ground! Last weekend it was a little different with flowers all over. I would like to try to tackle some of the more "adventurous" trails, but I think that my buddy with the 2WD explorer will be a hindrance (again).

 

Unfortunately, I do not. I did not think I needed a piece of paper to confirm that I did not need a piece of paper to go play in the woods.

Silly me for not thinking like a government agency

*sigh*

 

:wtf:


Basically sounds like things are vague enough that it could go either way. If we were already down there, I think they'd let it slide, but they're trying to nix this before things get going.

 

Is it mostly the issue of us staying at the campsites? I'm wondering if we just did the trail run whether there would be as much of an issue?

 

I can't speak to that and there is nothing to indicate the wisdom of that either way in the mail from them.

 

Yeah, after reading the guidlines again, "use" NFS land could be construed to mean alot of different things, including camping and off-roading. I'm sure the rangers rule over both the land and roads running through the national forest.

 

Although I had signed up for the event just last week, and then earlier in the week I found out I could not get the time off.
Now I hear this and it sucks.



I am at a loss for words, and don't have much else to say.
The Jams we have had in the past were never any trouble, but they did not get the mass attention as this one, and it sound like ranger Mike has a serious problem.
I'm sure he's reading this thread too.

Many thanks go out to the team of Rob, Shane, Gene, smr4runner, and Crash for taking a lot of their personal time getting this thing organized.

I myself plan on going up to the campsite of the 2001 Jam.
I am trying to get Sunday the 17th off, and just plan on hanging around the site and relaxing in the river in my lawn chair, and perhaps do a little exploring of some of the trails.
Many miles of nice trails up in that area.

Ranger Mike, don't bother coming into my campsite either, as you won't be welcome.

 

Alright. So some of us end up going out there.
I wouldn't doubt that the FS Rangers pulled our names off the registration list. All they have to do is pull over Toys all day. If you are one of the persons off the list, what exactly could they ticket you for? I mean, the ˟˟˟˟ is cancelled right?!

Sorry Im just urcked off!

Im still willing to go out somewhere this Friday.
Any suggestions?

 

WATRD,

Man, I can't imagine the anger you are probably feeling right now. Sounds like you've spent just as much if not more time organizing your event as Tom, Steve and I w/ the Pismo 4RJ.

I'm just stewing in my own broth just reading about your experience. I hate when people "double speak".

Bob

 

Well fricken great! I just got home from setting up my friend's motorhome along with my truck and two others. I'm soooooo pissed off right now. I think the sick up ranger's a$$ has a stick up it's own a$$!!!!! Talk about abuse of power. Heck I might just go anyways and pull the "what yotajam?" I'm going there with a samuri so it's not like it's just toyotas going with me. Anyway's I just sent an e-mail to randall and I would encourage all of you who are reading this to do so as well.

 

Sorry to hear this fellas...
A LOT of us are looking forward to this Pismo trip in a little over a week and I can tell you if that were cancelled because some 2nd rate government agency decided to go on a power trip...

 

That would be cool, is anyone else going anywhere on any run?
I'm pretty sure we can go somewhere else, but I too am mad cause I made plans to go to the yota Jam and bring my daughter along. She hasn't been offroad with me since I took her on my Tacoma with WATTORA at Shaw Lake and Reiter's Pit.

I'm game for this Saturday, I'll pretty much go anywhere. I am hoping the Yota Jam would still happen. darn!

- Manuel