I think it's a swell idea, and one that I looked at before as well.

In the end, I ha da couple of downsides to all-in-one digital gauges that stopped me from doing it:

• Speed - some of the older LCD gauges can be sluggish. The PLX gear is kinda' "old" technology so I'd try to get a look at them live before you drop the cash.
• I like being able to see a number of things at once. I've gotten in the habit of being able to look in one general area, move my eyes less than 1/8" and see 3 different things. No hitting buttons and such to look at A/FR as it relates to EGT.
• Bright - they can be harsh on the eyes since the whole gauge is lighting up.
• Cost... ouch.

 

Yeah cost is definitely way ouch... but in the end, I'm not really spending too much more compared to buying all the gauges separately, and then trying to figure out where to put the damn things. You wouldn't happen to have a picture of your interior with all of your gauges, would you?

I'll talk to the guys at URD and see what they think, especially about the issues you mentioned. Unfortunately, I don't want to buy myself a $350 AFR gauge, and then be pissed I didn't come up with the extra $200 to make things easier down the road (especially with the gauges I want for peace-of-mind). I am more seriously considering the PLX R-500 the more I think about it. I can understand what you mean with the pressing buttons to see an individual gauge's value. With the screen brightness if it was too bright i would tint the sucker, I ended up doing that with my digital voltage gauge since it was pretty bright. Is there a competing product with the PLX R-500 that you can think of?

The options I am most drawn to with the R-500:

Wideband AFR with included sensor, can totally replace NB O2 sensor
EGT plug-n-play capability (just need the k-type thermocouple)
Knock sensor integration
2 frequency and 4 voltage inputs (not including the above three)
2-axis Accelerometer
Data logging

It turns out the data logging would be pretty dang useful, because you can log RPM vs. MAP vs. AFR, which would really quicken the tuning process by looking for lean or rich conidions on a 3-D graph, like so:



Looks quite similar to the fuel map in the FTC...

and speaking of seeing AFR as it relates to EGT:





Anyway, it will be a wild ride

Good thing I've been saving $$$

 

As one of these first guys to install the URD kit 3 years ago and someone with tuning experience and all the URD goodies including Aquamist2D,I would suggest you go the 7th injector route with the URD additional injector controller. Its a better systems. If you really think about it, you dont really need extra fuel all the time. You really only needed it under boost. 98% of the time you are in non boost conditions. Modifiying MAF siginal for close loop is constant battle and the ECM will win every time. The outcome is random mis fires and CELs. TRDolMan has proven that 7th injector system works and works very well. His AFR curve is almost flat at 300+ rwhp!!!!

Another reason, if you look all the new URD projects such the turbo and supercharger system for current model tacomas, they all use the additional injector as a way of fuel enrichment for boosted vehicles. Bottom line is that Piggy back controlers have very limited control with bigger injectors. This is espeically true with 01 to 04 truck because their MAFs can have up to 6% error.

I know my opinion is some what controversial but its based on what I've read over the years and seen with my very own eyes.

Good Luck

 

I appreciate your input, but I think the URD Upgrade kit is the way to go for me... I have researched the URD option very thouroughly and feel I will be able to get excellent results with the larger fuel pump/injectors/FTC.

With the diagnostic equipment I am looking at, I'm confident I will be able to have a stable and powerful engine, AND will be able to easily diagnose and correct difficulties.

The URD upgrade kit by itself (~$1150) is less expensive than the 7th Injector kit plus the URD Extra Injector Upgrade (and required extra hardware) (~$1000+$329+$???).

The 7th injector is not compatible with my 1998 4Runner, due to the fact it has stock narrow-band O2 sensor, not a wide-band O2 sensor (although I will be adding a wide-band O2 sensor for tuning purposes, the ECU will receive a simulated narrow-band signal from the aftermarket hardware I'm installing with the sensor). The only way I can think of to use a 7th injector kit would be to install a post-99 4Runner ECU along with the factory WB O2 sensor, something I am definitely not interested in due to probable differences in the harnesses.

Thanks anyway.

 

Yeah its more money but you can't put a price on a strong engine.Sorry I didn't realize you had older 4 runner. Good luck and let me know if you need help tunning.

BTW: The only tuning tools you need are a wide band and ODII scan too. EGT guages are notoriously innacurate depending on where you put your sensor. Using AFR is the best way to tune.

 

OK damn it I'm drawing the line

Wideband AFR, OBDII scanner, THAT'S IT This whole thing is going to baloon out of control if I'm not careful. All I need is the basics and I'll be fine. WTH am I going to do with a dang $500 computer?!

Ok, I'm back in reality now. Two gauge pod is fine with me.

Mmmm, saving money feels good... thanks Doody

 

Interesting points, I wish you had posted this before I spent $lots$ at URD. Does the URD A/R calibrator change your opinion any?

 

Not really, it's just the "other" option. But, I do want to address a couple of points...


Right, and installing larger injectors with a piggyback will also only get you more fuel in boost. As you say, the ECU will eventually circumvent anything that the piggyback tries to do in closed loop.

You can get around this by using one of the "fake Open Loop" controllers.


Ummm.. huh? I don't get random misfires or CELs. I don't know anyone running a FTC or an SMT _that's been properly set up_ that has these sorts of problems.


Yeup, there's a point of diminishing returns. 370's are controlable at idle, 440's are not.

The problem with the 7th system shows itself when you push past the standard install (S/C with a up to a 2.2" pulley). To get more out of it, you need the "AIC" that URD sells, which is a rebadged Split Second part. Now you're in the game of running a piggyback on a piggyback (the stock TRD 7th controller is a non-configurable piggyback). Yes, it works, Dave's truck runs really well with it, but it's not as _configurable_ as a full FTC/SMT system with larger injectors.


As folks have always said - the 7th system is ideal for plug & play solutions. The Larger Injector path is ideal for the tweaker that wants more control and the ability to squeek out everything that the bolt-ons can give.

The IDEAL solution is to rip out the piggybacks altogether and go with something like a MegaSquirt. Piggybacks suck, but it's all that most folks have.

 

Ok I feel better now.

 

Dale, you did fine. The money spent on either solution ends up being in the same ballpark, but the net result is NOT the same for everyone.

 

I look forward to the piggyback solution for "altitude tuning" where I have maps set up for different pulleys based on the boost I am looking for (to make up for the lower density air). If I set up the maps correctly, I don't think the ECU will have to go through a heavy-duty re-learning process every time I change the pulley. The interesting thing is I might just end up with a single comprehensive map, because the FTC goes off of "absolute pressure" in the manifold, meaning an underdrive pulley would just push the FTC into higher MAF values... however, I think I may see separate maps for summer and winter, since it can get down to about 10F in the winter (under 30F during the day), but summertime may see upwards of 80F.

Basically, I'm a bit of a tinkerer

 

When we talked before, did I happen to mention that the SMT products allow you to switch between two sets of maps at the flick of a switch?

 

LOL you may have mentioned it, but I don't really need "flick of the switch" functionality, just the ability to change the map when I change the pulley. Remember? I'm trying to just get what I need now, not stuff with cool-whiz bangs I'll have plenty of time to get fancy stuff to play with on this rig later...

I'll just stick with the all-inclusive (or at least mostly inclusive) URD fuel upgrade kit

 

The 7th injector is a lot more powerful than you think. It has its own pre program map for cloose loop. Why mess with close loop. Let ECM do its job. You only need to control and adjust fuel for open loop situations which where your max power comes from anyways. Like I stated previously URD AIC and 7th is the best option other right now for 01 to 04 tacoms.

I been told that the 7th injector has something similiar to the URD AFR which makes makes the transition from close loop to open loop smoother.

I have the full URD kit, URD AFR controller, 2.2 pulley and aquamist. I know how to tune. You can only tweat your engine so much. Dave's dyno proves this. Dave's only tuned his truck once and its been running strong since day one. With the FTC, weather plays a major factor on how it runs.

Plenty of well tune trucks get mis fires more so with 01 to 04 truck. Ik22 will decrase it but you will still get miss fires. Unless you truck every week.

 

So we disagree...

The 7th, and it's companion pieces, are an _alternative_. I don't agree that it's "better" (nor do I think that larger injectors are).

I think that the solutions serve different purposes, and that line usually tracks a parallel to the "user" and the "tweaker".


One specific thing though...
Why do you say this, and thus imply that the 7th system doesn't? Both tie into the boost port to get data on airflow, and the SMT (competitor to the FTC) can get it's deflection info from the MAF which is just as valid.

 

The good thing about the FTC is it runs off of it own MAP system, so changes in barometric pressure don't affect your tune, however temperature changes can have some effect, depending on how large they are. All engines are subject to this rule, regardless of what they have on them. Closed loop functionality will account for minor atmospheric effects, and open loop is dependent on how good your tune is, regardless of whether you have the 7th or bigger injectors.

You definitely don't have to tune your truck every week by the way, unless you are a very bad tuner. The FTC is pretty much set it and forget it (with a little check now and then to make sure everything is A-OK) due to the ABSOLUTE pressure sensor, which can tell what the pressure of the air is despite atmospheric conditions.

 

I don't see one system as better than the other, they are parallel routes of getting more fuel into the cylinders. In the end, both have similar potentials and similar ways of getting there.

 

FTC is more flexible than the 7th injector, but remember that the unit is a piggy back and not a stand alone EMS.

 

Right, just like the 7th and the AIC, hence my point about the right thing to do being to tear it all out and run a MegaSquirt (or similar) which _is_ a standalone EMS.

 

Stand alone EMS would be good because YOU have control of the closed-loop function that way... But that's a lot of work for just controlling closed loop. When you go REALLY big injectors, you have to go stand-alone EMS because of idle issues and closed-loop problems, unless you want to run in open loop the whole time, yes?