Supercharger solution?
03-01-2007, 12:14 PM
#21
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03-01-2007, 12:17 PM
#22
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03-01-2007, 12:21 PM
#25
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"is a s/c worth it?"
have you ridden in or drivin a S/C yota yet? This is one of the best bangs per buck upgrades you can do as far as bolt on HP goes! stays reliable as a daily driver as well!
03-01-2007, 12:22 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
That's about what I'm thinking.....85 - 90 at the wheels any way. I dyno'd my old 1999 TRD Tacoma 4x4 5speed and got like 144HP at the wheels with the deck plate and Flowmaster 40 muffler. So I'm guessing 225 or so from this.
It's just crazy it takes 3 weeks of research to figure out exactly what you need to make it all work. Especially considering 8 years ago when all this was first coming out the TRD SC was claimed to be bolt on by Toyota and I even had the option of having it put on the 99 TRD before I took delivery. Thank God I didn't or it might have gone into melt down.
The reason I call the 7th injector route "bolt on" is because it can be removed easily without having to cut and splice any injector harness wiring.
03-01-2007, 12:26 PM
#27
Registered User
I dunno, got any examples of Wideband AFR gauges that are made to take a 0-5V input and diplay it as AFR? Sounds like you'd have to instead have a 0-5V voltage gauge... because the gauges I have seen plug into their host controller. Usually the controller is used because it controls warm-up of the O2 sensor (plus the gauges are using a digital/serial signal)
why hasn't anyone just plugged a gauge straight into their stock WB sensor?
Seriously guys... why WOULDN'T you be able to?
Yeah, but I'm goin for the bling factor..
(while reducing the total number of gauges I have mounted everywhere). That, and a logging system will make tuning the WOT a breeze (you know how it goes, add bigger injectors here, WMI there).
(re: EGT) Isn't the AFR a better way to determine that? If AFRs are in line, wouldn't exhaust gas temp be by default or am I missing something?
As well, don't skip over my comment about pushing it more. Tuning for a WOT AF/R of 12-12.5:1 is PART of tuning, but what you're also looking for is to get an optimum cylinder temp which will lt you tweak the efficiency of the burn.
I've said a couple of times on the forum that I don't really WOT tune with A/FR. I certainly watch A/FR to get in the ball park, and then I tweak to sit around 1450*.
If I get 225-230 RWHP I'd be thrilled.
03-01-2007, 12:43 PM
#28
Contributing Member
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Wideband zirconia sensor
A variation on the zirconia sensor, called the 'wideband' sensor, was introduced by Robert Bosch in 1994 but is (as of 2006) used in only a few vehicles. It is based on a planar zirconia element, but also incorporates an electrochemical gas pump. An electronic circuit containing a feedback loop controls the gas pump current to keep the output of the electrochemical cell constant, so that the pump current directly indicates the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. This sensor eliminates the averaging delay inherent in narrow band sensors, allowing the control unit to adjust the fuel delivery and ignition timing of the engine much more rapidly. In the automotive industry this sensor is also called a UEGO (for Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor.
A variation on the zirconia sensor, called the 'wideband' sensor, was introduced by Robert Bosch in 1994 but is (as of 2006) used in only a few vehicles. It is based on a planar zirconia element, but also incorporates an electrochemical gas pump. An electronic circuit containing a feedback loop controls the gas pump current to keep the output of the electrochemical cell constant, so that the pump current directly indicates the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. This sensor eliminates the averaging delay inherent in narrow band sensors, allowing the control unit to adjust the fuel delivery and ignition timing of the engine much more rapidly. In the automotive industry this sensor is also called a UEGO (for Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor.
03-01-2007, 12:49 PM
#29
Contributing Member
FYI from Innovate Motorsports' User Support Page:
This suggests to me that tapping into just the 0-5V wire might work, but why then isn't there a simple 0-5V accepting AFR gauge?
Originally Posted by Innovate Motorsports
Q: Can the analog output of the LM-1 provide the voltage straight from the sensor for the fuel injection computer?
A: The LM-1 can provide a wide-band AFR output, but it can't completely simulate connection to a wideband sensor (i.e. if your ECU tries to control the heater or the pump cell, it won't work).
A: The LM-1 can provide a wide-band AFR output, but it can't completely simulate connection to a wideband sensor (i.e. if your ECU tries to control the heater or the pump cell, it won't work).
Last edited by mastacox; 03-01-2007 at 12:51 PM.
03-01-2007, 03:40 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
Brian from URD called me back tonight and I had a nice conversation with him for about 20 minutes regarding various options. It seems the new URD 7th injector kit will fit exactly what I'm looking for. I'm gonna wait a couple of weeks to see what it entails when it's released.
03-01-2007, 03:47 PM
#31
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http://techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/
They give the math behind wideband A/FR while listing the features of the box:
- Linear voltage output (Vlin) zero to 5 Volt, with AFR = 9 + (2 * Vlin)
03-01-2007, 06:51 PM
#32
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Different wideband sensors use different operating meathods.
The air/fuel ratio sensor(s) used on Toyota trucks do not use a variable voltage signal. It operates on a fix voltage. If you tap a narrow band gauge into the signal wire from an air/fuel ratio sensor the reading on the gauge will never move. It will just sit in one place no matter what the real mixture is.
Narrow band gauges are not compatable with the Toyota air/fuel ratio sensors. This is not something I make up just so I can sell more wideband units. It is just a simple fact.
Gadget
The air/fuel ratio sensor(s) used on Toyota trucks do not use a variable voltage signal. It operates on a fix voltage. If you tap a narrow band gauge into the signal wire from an air/fuel ratio sensor the reading on the gauge will never move. It will just sit in one place no matter what the real mixture is.
Narrow band gauges are not compatable with the Toyota air/fuel ratio sensors. This is not something I make up just so I can sell more wideband units. It is just a simple fact.
Gadget
03-01-2007, 07:33 PM
#33
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03-01-2007, 08:10 PM
#34
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The air/fuel ratio sensor(s) used on Toyota trucks do not use a variable voltage signal. It operates on a fix voltage. If you tap a narrow band gauge into the signal wire from an air/fuel ratio sensor the reading on the gauge will never move. It will just sit in one place no matter what the real mixture is.
03-01-2007, 09:00 PM
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Gadget
03-01-2007, 09:46 PM
#36
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I said that in response to Brian saying:
I think I have heard that piggybacking off of the stock AFR sensor is a nono, but don't quote me on that...
fwiw, I _do_ think that it's possible to piggyback off of the stock A/FR, and I KNOW you can do it off of the stock O2.
Your opinion differs from mine. This is just another example of us seeing things differently Steve. We've clashed since day one. Oh well.
03-06-2007, 08:03 AM
#37
Contributing Member
Yikes, this thread got a little awkward... anyway I thought I'd wake it up just for an update on something I said:
Interestingly, there are rumors of a new component for the MTS (modular tuning system) that Innovate! is devloping which would add interpretation of OBD-II data. So, in theory, it will be possible to log fuel trims in the engine's ECU, as well as any other OBD-II data you are interested in. The name for this component is to be the "OpenTune OT-1." While it might be a rather expensive option compared to just a regular OBD-II Scan Tool, the possiblity of logging MAP and RPM data versus short-term fuel trim while the ECU is in closed-loop operation would prove invaluable in getting a truly transparent tune on the piggyback unit.
Just thought it was interesting, and deliciously nerdy
I'm keeping this thing in mind for if/when I get a data logger in my ride 
I hope to in the future have a data logging system plugged into it (which is where I will get EGT from) and it will help me have a lot of information displayed on only 2 gauges (yes, I hope to have 2 XD-16's, the boost gauge will be replaced with one). I hope to use the system for keeping track of several metrics, including EGT, AFR, Boost, Oil Pressure, etc.
... the logging system will make tuning the WOT a breeze (you know how it goes, add bigger injectors here, WMI there). As long as the system keeps track of MAP, RPM, and AFR, I can just plot it in a 3-D plot, and adjust my fuel map accordingly. Now closed loop isn't quite as obvious due to the damn ECU's fuel trims, if only I could log those...
... the logging system will make tuning the WOT a breeze (you know how it goes, add bigger injectors here, WMI there). As long as the system keeps track of MAP, RPM, and AFR, I can just plot it in a 3-D plot, and adjust my fuel map accordingly. Now closed loop isn't quite as obvious due to the damn ECU's fuel trims, if only I could log those...
Just thought it was interesting, and deliciously nerdy
I'm keeping this thing in mind for if/when I get a data logger in my ride
03-06-2007, 08:14 AM
#38
Registered User
Thread Starter
Yikes, this thread got a little awkward... anyway I thought I'd wake it up just for an update on something I said:
Interestingly, there are rumors of a new component for the MTS (modular tuning system) that Innovate! is devloping which would add interpretation of OBD-II data. So, in theory, it will be possible to log fuel trims in the engine's ECU, as well as any other OBD-II data you are interested in. The name for this component is to be the "OpenTune OT-1." While it might be a rather expensive option compared to just a regular OBD-II Scan Tool, the possiblity of logging MAP and RPM data versus short-term fuel trim while the ECU is in closed-loop operation would prove invaluable in getting a truly transparent tune on the piggyback unit.
Just thought it was interesting, and deliciously nerdy I'm keeping this thing in mind for if/when I get a data logger in my ride
Interestingly, there are rumors of a new component for the MTS (modular tuning system) that Innovate! is devloping which would add interpretation of OBD-II data. So, in theory, it will be possible to log fuel trims in the engine's ECU, as well as any other OBD-II data you are interested in. The name for this component is to be the "OpenTune OT-1." While it might be a rather expensive option compared to just a regular OBD-II Scan Tool, the possiblity of logging MAP and RPM data versus short-term fuel trim while the ECU is in closed-loop operation would prove invaluable in getting a truly transparent tune on the piggyback unit.
Just thought it was interesting, and deliciously nerdy
I'm keeping this thing in mind for if/when I get a data logger in my ride
03-06-2007, 08:22 AM
#39
Contributing Member
Interesting. I've been reading up on data loggers. Does the LC-1 log data? I know it comes as a combo with an XD-16 do display AFR, but how does it log data? I read something about it having a stereo cable to connect to a laptop serial port (huh?). I'm an IT professional and am VERY familiar with computer hardware, so I'm assuming this unit comes with some kind of adapter that goes from stereo to serial? A pic would really be great.
For logging, you can use one of these:
LMA-3 Aux Box
DL-32 Datalogger
The LMA-3 can log 5 engine metrics simultaneously, the DL-32 can log (surprise) 32 metrics. The DL-32 is obviously much more expensive ($500 for the DL-32, $250 for the LMA-3). You can see an example of an MTS tuning chain HERE.
EDIT: Keep in mind, it will be possible to display data from the OT-1 through the XD-16 diplay without the use of one of the data loggers. While I really like the modular setup of Innovate's MTS, PLX also has a logging option of their own in the R-500 wideband computer. The R-series controllers are similarly expensive and not nearly as widely applicable as the serial-chain layout of the Innovate MTS. The PLX devices also have no possiblity of logging OBD-II data without some sort of custom setup.
Last edited by mastacox; 03-06-2007 at 08:48 AM.
03-06-2007, 09:03 AM
#40
Contributing Member
Found a detailed description of the OT-1 :http://tunertools.com/proddetail.asp?prod=IN-3790
It's supposed to be coming out in March, so this month.
EDIT: WTF?! it says it's $400 for this thing! If it's that much freakin' money, I don't want it... I was hoping like $150 lol.
Last edited by mastacox; 03-06-2007 at 09:06 AM.
