Oh man... That'll get you in trouble Christian!


iBilinTuc, take a look here for a start:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f2/perfect-power-smt-piggyback-controller-56220/

That thread talks about the SMT system, but it does okay in covering the basics of what you're wondering.

The URD system is covered well on Gadget's commercial site, URD USA: http://www.urdusa.com/. He's also written a tuning guide which is specific to the FTC controller:
http://www.gadgetonline.com/U-Tune.pdf


The vast majority of people who add an S/C will need either the 7th injector system or the SMT or the URD system (uses the FTC controller) or some way to alter ignition timing (to control the ping) and add fuel to the system (to control the high RPM leanout). Installing either solution isn't hard, (the 7th injector is easiest), and there's no programming involved. What you do is enter numbers into a grid to advance/retard the timing and lean/richen the fuel mixture based on reading numbers off of a good OBD II reader.

That said, there _are_ 3rd party ECU's that are complete replacements for the stock ECU. That's a good bit of work to deal with, and the piggybacks do just fine for what we're talking about.


Read up a bit on those other links and lemme know if you have other questions.

 

Thank you very much! I will do some reading.

My goal is to eliminate ping without a 7th injector. That is because I don’t want to spend the dough. Plus I have not seen it listed for a ’97 4Runner application. (Since I have not held a 7th injector in my hand, I am not sure why it would fit a 99 but not a 97 unless it has to do with the ECU.)

 

Where are you in AZ?

 

You may know this already, but I wanted to make sure we're on the same page...

The "7th injector" is comprised of a couple of pieces. There's an injector that fits into the back of the S/C, and a black box that "piggybacks onto" (uses the stock wiring harness, and electrically sits in front of) the ECU. The black box does two things. a) It provides control for the 7th injector to come on at higher RPMs thus combating the High RPM Lean Out; b) It alters the timing tables to combat the low RPM ping.

You can control ping without the injector; you can control leanout without changing the timing. The "7th injector solution" though is an all-in-one deal, you can't just buy the modified timing tables without the injector controller.

But... there are other ways to control the timing. The FTC1 from SplitSecond or the SMT6 from PerfectPower will do it (though they also can do a lot more). SplitSecond also sells controllers which will JUST modify the timing.


I understand, but also please understand that this is a dangerous way to approach adding an S/C.

You will most probably have two separate issues which will need to be addressed. 1) Low RPM ping (controllable with a timing controller); 2) High RPM leanout (controllable with the 7th or going the URD/SMT route with a new fuel pump, additional fuel controller and maybe larger injectors).

(here's the kicker) Either one of these conditions can DESTROY your engine if you don't address them. The leanout issue will probably destroy your engine quicker than the ping, but they'll both do it. Ping (BAD ping, which this is) will break a connecting rod; leanout causes VERY high cylinder temps and will burn a hole through a piston.

If you're looking to add a S/C on a budget, then PLEASE wait until your budget gets larger before doing it.


I'm 94.1% sure that it's fine. Calling TRD would clarify it.

800-688-5912
http://www.trdusa.com/ContactNumbers.asp

 

NW Tucson.

 

[QUOTE=midiwall]If you're looking to add a S/C on a budget, then PLEASE wait until your budget gets larger before doing it.QUOTE]

Actually, I've been running a s/c for about 20k mi. When I first installed it, I noticed the ping. I cleared the ECU memory and that took care of a lot of it, but not all. So, I still have work to do.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience; it means alot. It is expensive to learn the hard way!

(I haven't mastered the quote process, yet.)

 

You just needed a "[/" in front of the "quote]" at the end of the message.


Continued luck with the S/C!

 

Okay. I've emailed TRD with the part number question. I am cheap, but I am also more lazy than cheap; if I can get away with just installing the kit, that's for me.

Thank you, I'll let you know what they say.

--Bill

 

Thanks for the link. TRD says the 7th Injector is not intended for the '97 4Runner.

To quote TRD, "Sorry, but we don't offer a 7th injector kit for the 97 model year. It's offered for the 00-01 and 01-02 only." In reading Gadget's info, it seems to me that it has to do with the way the O2 sensor functions in the '96 - 98s.

But, that's alright; I had about talked myself out of the 7th Injector anyway. I know I would be unhappy down the road with something I cannot control.

So, I am now leaning toward Gadget's solution.

 

Crap... well, that handles the 5.9% unknown that I had left open.


cool.

 

I ran the supercharger with no fuel mods ( pinged sometimes) and combined with crappy gas on a roadtrip ( in Utah), it blew a hole through the piston. So now I have a new engine with no supercharger. The funny thing is premium gas isn't a big issue because I got 17 MPG SC'd and 16MPG NA. You pay a little more for gas, but you also get more miles to the tank. I am thinking about get the URD kit and putting the SC back on. I think it should be much more reliable with the fuel kit.

 

Are you the guy that sent me pictures a long time ago of the pistons that you took out of your engine with the holes in them?

If so, can I get those again from you? I seemed to have misplaced them.

Gadget

 

I have not posted any pics in the past. This is the only picture I have, and sorry it was from a camera phone. I think I might contact URD today, he's only 10 minutes away from me anyways.

 

Do I have this right? The 7th injector only comes into play only during full throttle (open loop) condition? And therefore, with an SMT6, I would be able to control a 7th injector on my '97 4Runner (for which TRD says they have no application)? Or, am I better off to go SMT6, larger injectors, higher capacity fuel pump? (I'm already running cooler plugs from Gadget and 170 degree thermostat.)

 

True


Nope, well, not really... That's not how the SMT folks are using the box.

The way that "we" are using the SMT6, it modifies the fuel tables globally across the board. This will create a situation where you can change the duration that the stock injectors are open to either lean out or richen the mixture. (see * note below for caveats)

But, the SMT6 DOES have a third table (the first two are timing and fuel) and an additional output that you can use to control anything you want. This is usually used for a water injection system, but be could used to control a "7th injector" that could be placed at the same spot that the TRD kit does.



Personally, I like the idea of larger injectors instead of adding a 7th. And understand that you can use either the FTC system that Gadget promotes as a fuel controller, or the SMT.

** BUT ** When you do this, ("this" being adding larger injectors) then you will probably be in a situation that your truck will NOT start without the controller. Without a piggyback, the stock ECU will end up running the engine so rich that it won't start.

This isn't an issue with the SMT6 or FTC, but it can be with older SMT controllers.


* note: The SMT/FTC solution will provide you more flexibility in setting up and tuning your engine. But, you will only be able to _really_ modify the fuel mixture at WOT - which is okay 'cause it's what you need to do. This comes from the ECU forcing the fuel mixture to Stoich in closed loop. You can tweak the fuel feed in closed loop, but what you're doing is basically making it easier for the ECU to get things to Stoich.

There _is_ a way around this though, and the new FTC controller (Gadget has 'em) supports a board that will confuse the ECU to think that the engine is in open loop thus giving you more access to fuel tuning.

I don't know if that capability exists stand-alone and could thus be used with the SMT boxes.



Confused yet? I'm tryin'!

 

Midiwall, what kind of injectors are you running? Are they plug-n-play or did you have to wire in a new connector?

I now have my FTC installed; I got the model that allows me to trick the ecu into thinking it’s in closed loop when in reality, it is not. It’s pretty cool. I can choose whatever pressure I want to have this option kick in.

I’m thinking ahead now to fuel mods. I’m shooting for an Innovate Wideband Kit first though. But for now, I did make the ping go away and I am keeping my foot away from the open loop mode.

Thank you for your reply, if you do.

 

Plug 'n Play! These are 305cc parts from a Supra.

Cool on losing the ping!

 

Thank you! Do you have a Toyota part number? (Now I'm pushing it, huh.)

 

I don't, but Gadget's got 'em:
http://www.gadgetonline.com/Fuel.htm#Injector%20Upgrade


You should be able to find them used... Buying new from the dealer would be pricey. Or, move up a notch to 318cc Bosch's and buy them from Gadget via URD:
http://www.urdusa.com/index.php?cPath=79_11

Keep in mind that you'll have to replace the fuel pump to keep the injectors filled!

 

Got it! Thank you! I am grateful to you!