too bad toyota didn't give out the names and email address of whoever was in charge of making and redesigning the new 4runner... I bet they would have some major hate mail

 

Hey man,

I wanted to change my tranny and diff. fluid on my '97 5spd, 3.4 this weekend. Any tips you can offer? Is it as easy as it looks? Thanks for your help.

Billy

 

Jay,
Now that you have uncapped a pandora's box, how much experience have you had with the TRD Supercharger?

Since we all know that it is not a plug-and-play on the 3rd generation 4Runners, as TRD would have us believe, what can you tell us is a general fix for the typical problems ... that won't void the warranty?

 

Peter,

I can aswer this for Jay. He's not been here much lately as he's just been busy with life. I was just down at his shop on Friday night hanging out with him. Anyway, Jay has never installed a S/C on one of these engines. He's not into the performance aspect of things, and is more concerned with OEM stability and longevity.

He has witnessed a few people have the Dealer remove the S/C very shortly after having them installed for exactly the same reasons you are contemplating having yours removed. There isn't anything the Dealers can do, both legally and regarding providing a warranty, to correct the issues concerning the problems with the S/C package as it is being sold and installed.

I can let Jay know about this post and you can hear it straight from him, but I doubt the answer will be much different, if at all.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Don't shoot the messenger.

Dr. Z

 

Ahhh, to be in the real world where people with common interests, other than fishing, can get together face to face. I kinda knew the answer, as I think you knew, but I thought I would just weigh down Jay's load with one more stone.

I find it very interesting that you say that people who use his dealership have had the units removed. This gives me a feeling of more leverage as I approach my dealer this Friday for the first showdown on my problem. I was going to install the plugs the other day but I want things to be status quo to reflect my complaint when I take the truck in. I will see if they will do this work under warranty for me. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your comments.

 

As for the specifics of how many had them removed, I can't say. What I do remember Jay telling me is that the people who had them removed were just so disappointed in the overall experience, post S/C install. A lot of the techs seem to think that the whole TRD S/C thing is a huge PITA and in some cases, a joke.

I know the service manager there had one installed in her 4Runner and she wasn't that impressed with it either. I asked her if she went to the trouble to install headers and do some other upgrades and she said she did not. I think that it's silly to install the S/C and not install headers. I also think, after seeing all the data on the whole lean-out issue, that fuel upgrades should be one of the manditory items on anyone's list when installing it.

The S/C is a much larger financial commitment than most people seem to realize or want to accept. The dealers can't fix it, either. In order for that to happen, it has to come from TRD already fixed and they aren't going to do it any time soon, if ever.

Since the S/C does simply "work" when bolted on, and if you NEVER intend to run your engine over 4K or run it at WOT very often, like most grocery getting owners of these trucks are wont to do, TRD can claim it's "Plug and Play". But, then what would be the point of the S/C if you weren't going to do all of that?

I wish you luck Peter. Maybe you can make more headway into these issues being corrected than anyone who's gone before you. Just so you know, you can count on me if you need any kind of data for your arguments. I'd be willing to bet that others would do the same.

Peace!
Dr. Z

 

Just wanted to say welcome Jay. Good to see more taco owners.

Kevin

 

Dr. Z -
I know you are supportive of me and everyone else here ... and you do it with grace and patience. Thank you.

Here is what I think: It is a given that most SC or TC installations do not happen without additional modifications. Toyota should provide either a reflash of the ECU, if that is even possible with an OBD2 computer. OR they should provide for a performance ECU upgrade, one that would then handle the other modifications that performance minded customers are surely going to want ... and attempt to do. They certainly could offer a straight purchase TRD "PERFORMANCE" ECU or a "core" trade-in program.

I believe that the OE NA tuning is so borderline for the SC application that adding any element that is going to skew the fine line of the OE NA tuning will have a negative effect. ie: intake or exhaust modifications. Normally, it would behoove one to introduce more air and better breathing to the SC; however, with that would have to come more fuel and the tuning to make that functional throughout the rpm range. I still don't think that the timing is the real culprit here. Besides, a lot of the tuning is to satisfy EPA standards.

The way the SC is integrated into the OE ECU tuning right now, I do not even think the introduction of a free-flow exhaust is appropriate.

Paragraphs 3 and 4 of your reply are 110% correct, and what I said above only serves to regurgitate your opinions.

I am going to play along with Toyota and be cooperative, although it will be tiresome and tedious. I will install the lower temp thermostat and the one-range colder plugs. After that, they will have exhausted their Band-Aid fixes (?) If my problem is not solved, I will see if we can't start a campaign of numbers ... or I'll tell them to take it off.

All of this right now is just talk and isn't really going to get me anywhere. I think what we will have to do, if this issue needs to go further, is get organized and poll the membership who have not started digging into the tuning and are dissatisfied with the way their SC's are performing. I realize that at roughly $2500 to $3500, we are not talking about a huge audience, but we'll just have to see. What someone smarter than me needs to do is put together a basic questionnaire for those with SC's. We would then take a poll, and send the responses to a representative of Toyota or TRD. With enough negative consumer feedback, the appropriate response would either be that they acknowledge there is a problem and develop a fix, or they consider discontinuing the sale the SC. :rolleyes: I figure we would need at _least_ 50 responses to be heard. That would mean that we might have to tap other 4Runner or Tacoma boards. Organizing consumer actions is so much easier with the advent of the Net.

I would strongly advise anyone currently installing a Supercharger to do just that ... install the SC and do nothing else, except maybe the colder plugs and thermostat. Then just run the snot out of it and see if you notice any problems. If so, document them and talk about it here.
**DON'T install headers
**DON'T install an exhaust system
**DON'T alter the intake system in any way

That all can come later IF you have no problems, but I am betting you will have problems. If I had it to do over again I would go the route that Dr. Z. is going ... NA.
SC = bad bang for the buck ... right now.

 

Well, it could be copper.

 

I have a PAL Alpha 8045, full of copper and no water

 

Actually, compared to Copper, Aluminum is a poor conductor of heat, which is what my statement refers to. Aluminum is cheaper to make heatsinks out of and weighs less, which is why it is in more common use. I have a copper heatsink made by CoolerMaster. It sits on top of my processor, which sits in my Epox motherboard inside my CoolerMaster All Aluminum case. I have the ATC-201c, except when I bought it 2 years ago, it was just the ATC-201 and it didn't have any siblings.

However, when not compared to Copper, Aluminum works better than a lot of other materials.

Peace!
Dr. Z

 

Ah Ha! I knew you were a freak !!!

 

Busted.

Dr. Z

 

 

Thats correct.

You starting to know me pretty well.

 

WOW Jay is alive!!:eek:

 

So Jay,
What are your comments on the thoughts that I added to Galen's discourse? Will you elucidate?

 

Damn you big word fella's. Im a mechanic, not a english major!

Not in front of you.

*goes in search of a dictionary*

 

*pulls nose out of dictionary*

Ah...

I dont recognize a specific question, however I will add some thoughts. I think I understand where you are coming from in regards to what you feel Toyota 'should' do to remedy your situation. I feel your expectaions are higher than TRD's general purpose in offering the product. Common sense tells me that you can not just bolt on a supercharger and have a race engine. In your attempts to have the dealer 'fix something' and make it all better, I am afraid you are going to find out there is nothing that the dealer can do, they are not engineers. The product is performing as intended.

 

Jay,
I must respectfully challenge you with regard to your last sentence in particular. When I purchased the SC, I asked the dealer as well as TRD, what was involved. I was assured over and over that the SC was plug-and-play and that there would be no problem ... NO PROBLEM! The ECU would learn and adjust to compensate for the SC. IF the product is performing as intended, do you really think a company with Toyota's reputation _intended_ the engine to run so lean that it would continually experience pre-ignition under load and every time you place a load on the engine, you would get a fuel smell, indicative of a lean condition, in the passenger cabin? Do you think that they would tell you _after_ the installation that they wanted you to drive in DRIVE only (at all speeds), not in OVER DRIVE and that you might (????) want to install a lower thermostat or try a colder range plug ... if the product is performing as intended?

What I think is that there is a huge black hole, a vortex if you will that fills the gap between the high level engineers that design the vehicles and the people on the street. There is no intelligent life inbetween ... and I am NOT referring to you at all so do not misunderstand. As far as I can tell, middle management has to wing it, which is really difficult when your head is burried in the sand. As a result, the troops on the frront line just have to do the best they can. I am appalled at the irresponsible claims and fumbling bumbling stumbling flip flop that Toyota has been handing out to people who take a leap of faith with their TRD products.

Back to you ...