irott

I know the FE Engines are from UK Camrys...

But what is the difference?
A lot of people will say that the 4runners 3.0 is one of the worst toyota engines ever, so does the FE suck also? Or is it a totaly different engine?

Im not going anywhere with this, I am just curious.

snap-on

FE i belive was a designation for the bell houseing bolt pattern on the back.

no diffrance in the heads or rest of the engine (as far as i know)

worst toyota engines ever???? i wouldnt say that, Its had its problems shure but nothing that cant be fixed these days.... Im partial to it.

<edit> ok shows you how much *I* know about them

irott

Heh... I am not saying its the "worst ever". Thats just what I have heard.

kyle_22r

"FE" breaks down into "narrow angle(economical)" twin cam, fuel injection.

the engines are both a 3VZ, one is SOHC(truck/runner) the other is a DOHC(camry)

"VZ" is the engine family, most toyota engine families all share the same bellhousing pattern and most are all based around the same block.

3VZ is the 3rd revision, 5VZ is the 5th revision of the family, and so on. a 22R is the 22nd revision of the R engine family...

irott

Thanks Kyle.

So I take it the "E" stands for Fuel Injection as is on the 22R-E.

leiniesred

The F in toyota engine designation means twin cam. In this case, 4 total overhead cams. 4 valves per cyl on the 3VZ-FE. the swap has potential because you can (could) also get a factory supercharger for this engine. The engine is also found in the Lexus ES300 in 1992 and 1993.



Efforts to use the engine in trucks haven't been successful (yet) The intake runs all the wrong way since it is designed for a low hood transverse motor.

kyle_22r

also, there's 2 twin cam designations. F is geared towards milder engines, like the larger cars such as camrys and trucks, while the G(wide angle) twin cams were always put in higher performance engines, like supras, GTS corollas, and foriegn market celicas.

Toysrme

3vz-e VS 3vz-fe.
Ahhhhhhh it's always intertaining.
Head wise, they were the continuation (most advanced) of the Yamaha FE heads (at the time) with coolant passages & construction revisions to eliminate several inherent 3vz-e problems (Burning valves, massive head gasket problems.)
The 3vz-fe solved half the 3vz-e problems in that the engine problems were solved, but the typical ÅÅÅÅ gasket construction of the time was retained (steel plate & sealing rings + asbestos/paper fibers +gooy crap to seal passages).

There are revisions of both the block & some internal parts & some are completely un-related - but basic construction in the same. A massive crankshaft, slightly different in construction than the 3vz-e & dwarfing the 2vz-fe, typical huge bearing cradle, mains ect. The rods are the strongest of the toyota v6 family. (Unless something in the new GR family can beat them - I've never seen them, but one could speculate from the last 15 years - that like other engine familes & their replacement familes - they've gotten weaker parts wise.)
The pistons are typical construction on non-FI applications. Tho uncoated, & what we consider the weakest part of the engine - they have proven to hold up to abuse & high power levels.
The 3vz-fe is also the most detonation resistant of any of the v6's by a very, *very* wide margin. 3 quick examples. I inadvertently set my base timing to 40*btdc for a week on 87 octane. Nothing but power loss. Another guy turned a 15s (maybe later 14s) 3vz-fe on 87 octane to a 17s 20*btdc base timing in the middle of the summer - no problems. They've also proven to be very n2o & FI friendly at stock 10*btdc, 7*btdc & 5*btdc depending on if you wanna run 300, 350, or 400+.

The valvetrain of the FE v6's for cars is much stronger than your truck engines. All the car v6's have proven to to valve float on stock cams until > 7500rpm. A stock 3vz-fe redline is 6850rpm, fuel/ignition cuts at 7100rpm.
Initial thought would be that it sacrifices low end torque - however unlike the later engines, the 3vz-fe does not.
95% peak torque under 2500rpm, 100% peak torque @ both 2500rpm & 4600rpm. (The classic descent condition 3vz-fe dyno on the 22% driveline loss A-540 family A/T)

Note the dip between torque peaks is providied by the ACIS system shutting @ 4100rpm. By permanently closing it, the dip is cut by at least 3/4.

Electro & electro-mechanically the 3vz-e & 3vz-fe are unrelated. Everything has turn up being new sensors / parts.
The system itself was designed along the lines of the high power engines of the time with the ability parts wise to scale to future higher output. (For instance, the 3vz-fe has the largest AFM size denso makes - while having a backwards working output so you can't swap it don't ask LoL!)



On the funny note, the 3vz-fe wound up being in the power league of the 1jz/2jz-ge motors of the time when they started the pre-production tests. Obviously you can't have this from a marking standpoint, leading to another 3vz-fe uniqueness.
We all know Toyota stuff runs rich. (Sacrifice ring life for cooling & install quality rings to offset it) The 3vz-fe was *highly* detuned from the factory. Highly can't be over exaggerated enough. Peak power from timing is found around 17*btdc base timing on the distributor. Fueling is insanely rich stock getting clearly into the 12's during open loop at times.
The only difference between the 92-93 3vz-fe's and the 94+ 3vz-fe's (Not sold in north america - replaced by the 1mz-fe). The 92-97.5 3vz-fe's are identical, the difference is stock tuning. As the 2jz-ge had aserted itself in power, Toyota went back to a more standard tuning of the 3vz-fe going from 185hp/189lb-ft, to 200hp/205lb-ft.
A 92-93 can pickup 10bhp peak without spending a cent by adjusting the AFM cog lean & rotating the distributor. 10-15bhp across most of the rpm range can be found with a quality piggyback.


An FYI, a 200bhp 3vz-fe is more than the 3.4L 5vz-fe's ever saw & nearly any stock 3vz-fe can achieve it for free.

3VZ-FE DOHC 4 93 2958 189hp@5800 199lb-ft4600@ 87.5 82
5VZ-FE DOHC 4 95-97 3378 190hp@4800 220lb-ft@3600
3VZ-FE DOHC 4 95 2958 200hp@5800 205lb-ft@4600 87.5 82

The 3vz-e was a new design in the mid 80's for a new widely truck engine that was used across the board (But in retrospect failed in some ways, tho ya it isn't a bad engine.)
The 3vz-fe was a new head & electronics package to the 3vz-e, on a redesigned block intended to exceed both the 3vz-e & 2vz-fe.
The 4vz-fe was intended to replace the 2vz-fe as the wide use car v6 engine for the world-wide market.
The 5vz-fe was the next logical step for trucks. Combine proven Yamaha design heads, the VZ block family & new OBD-II mandated electronics/emessions packages.



This is pretty much scratching the surface.
At first glance & first tear apart it's simply a head change, but it goes down to the roots.

Toysrme

Personally Tho I will always support anyone trying to put FE heads on an E block, I still stand that it won't work. It's not because of the intake, or timing problems, blah blah - you can make, match & swap parts to solve that.
The problem I have with it is pistons, head passages that won't line up correctly on gaskets / designs / construction that were never 100% fixed & electronics that will require tuning (which to me - a semi-outsider - 3vz-e owners I think have dropped the ball doing - no offince!).


The head gasket progression thanks to fel-pro. Side note fel-pro sucks hind tit. Avoid them at all costs... They're cheap & you get what you pay for. (Crap) 5vz & MZ family buy the Multi-Layer-Steel gaskets. Everyone else, either custom MLS, custom copper, or Victro's Nitroseals (Graphite & steel).
"In the begining" LoL!

2vz-fe
Left - Right
-

3vz-fe
Left - Right
-

3vz-e
Left - Right
-

5vz-fe (Redesigned MLS)
Left - Right
-

1mz-fe (94+ non vvt-i Redesigned MLS)
Left - Right
-

1mz-fe (vvt-i BEAMS 99+ Lexi)
Left - Right
-

irott

Toysrm...

Thats some great information.
I did a little more searching (which I guess I should have done in the first place) and came up with some more good info at Toysport. According to those guys the "F" twin cam is a "narrow" cam design. (The "F" stands for Four Valve.)

The site also has some good info on the 5MGE and 7MGE engines.

Toysrme

Yes, there are a lot of sites with engine code information.
All you really need to know is FE will have at least twice power at some point once you go down low enouhg on the RPM range & more power entering the mid-rpm where it falls behind & then trails off.
GE's universally have nothing down low compaired to FE cams, eventually catch up somewhere in the mid rpm range & run away at high rpm with their mid-high rpm ranges cams.
IMHO The valve angle is way over-rated. Where you get the difference is cam profile & port design.
GE ports themselves are better stock VS stock. Either designed port is essecntually the same thing. Economy heads shouldn't fret. After the smoke clears FE porting has a lot more to gain.
Tho only GE engines are the common to modify; in some of the overlapping engines (like 3s-ge VS 3s/5s-fe). The very few fully prepped & cammed FE heads VS GE's with the same mods kill the GE's powerband wise. Woot Woot for FE ports after you mod them hahahahaha.

FE's tend to be better suited for turbos on street engines. More low range power doesn't just equal more go - it equals more go earlier.

leiniesred

Wow! Great info Toysrme! The gaskets shots are amazing! So...I guess I'll never put FE pistons and heads on an E block.
What about the entire 3vz-fe engine? Waste of time?
Just do the 5vze swap when my 3vze blows up?

Toysrme

It really depends. Stock for stock, honestly I keep trying to talk someone into dropping a 3vz-fe in. You're trading some torque from a 5vz-fe has for a much longer powerband.
Eh, if someone had the time to sit down & play with it, you could get the heads to work. Some machining on the heads to flip them around, or flip the intake manifold ports around & weld the original sides shut. Or cut the ACIS chamber off the runners, flip it upside down so it's 180* to the other side & weld it shut. Hell you could JB weld it if you can't weld alu, or pay someone to do it for you.


FYI The 97+ 1mz-fe supercharger will not fit any pre '97 v6. Tho yes, you can have the supercharger machined in some way to make it fit. (Sorry, I don't know if the bolt pattern is different, or what.) It has been done. The 3.0L supercharer sucks hind tit anyway, you wouldn't want it. N2o, or custom turbo.

6lug

So the a complete 3vzfe couldnt be dropped in and mated to orginal tranny? Along with the 3vzfe computer?

Toysrme

Yes it will.
Engine + wiring + TCCU just like any other swap.

6lug

so why dont more people do this? sounds like a good idea?

irott

I read the 1MZ-FE has the same Engine mounts and bell housing attachments as the 3VZ-FE. But I bet its a totaly different kind of engine.

Toysrme

Yes. (Like I said, 2 patters, large & small)
Yes it is completely un-related. The only things in common are mounting patterns, & *slightly* changed, but exact same intake manifold, upper intake air chamber & exhaust manifold styles. (That's a 3vz-fe VS a pre vvt-i 1mz-fe.)

You guys would hate the 1mz-fes. They get a little more peak power, but trade in all forms of low end power for it.
The can take the trd supercharger, are about 80lbs lighter, have bitchy OBD-II electronics & semi hard to pick-up timing sensors - are more prone to both detonation & have knock sensor problems on random engines.


They'd be my last choice of the 3.0L +'s for a truck. They have upsides, but not enough for what most of yall would be into doing.


VS
1mz-fe 94-96 w' bad knock sensors (No knocking, but engine retards timing - note waves)


VS

94 1mz-fe w' cat back & 18's (best run)


VS
another 94-96 1mz-fe A/T




97+ got another 10bhp from a revised upper intake air chamber
vvt-i adds a wide powerband & 210bhp (that'd be about 160-165 whp on those A/T dynos to compare)

irott

On another unrelated tangent...

Anyone know which year of the 5MGE had the Serpentine drive belt as opposed to the Dual V-Belt?

paddlenbike

iTrader: (1)

Very interesting info toysrme! I didn't know the 5vz-fe heads were designed by Yamaha. Some are (like the 1jz-gte) and some aren't (2jz-gte).

If you ever get bored, feel free to send me technical info on the 5vz-fe, 7m-gte, 1jz-gte and 2jz-gte; my favorite engines!