SodiumFlouride

Clutch kit question for Toyota '97 3RZ-FE 4-cylinder engine with 5-speed W59 transmission

The clutch pedal on a 3rd-gen 4Runner 2WD W59 transmission 3RZ-FE engine is engaging late.

There is not a single 3RZ-FE 4Runner W59 transmission clutch DIY for the 2WD '97 on the entire Internet that I can find, so I wrote up my own prospective detailed Frankenstein DIY from about a score of DIYs for other vehicles, which I will post later when I do the job.

Having never done a clutch myself, I'm now doing my homework where the first question I have is about parts to buy for a vehicle that is strictly road use by a woman (my sister) where I've already replaced the shifter bushings:


And I've replaced the 5-speed W59 transmission fluid with 2.7 liters of Redline MT-90:


And this past weekend I rebuilt the clutch master cylinder:


And the clutch slave cylinder:


After easily bench bleeding the clutch master cylinder:


And after making a total mess out of attempting to bench bleed the clutch slave cylinder:


I bled the system thoroughly with ATE DOT4 Racing Blue, which solved her immediate inability to shift when backing out of the garage problem:


Moving forward, the problem is that the clutch pedal engages very late in the release cycle.
Hence, my question here is about choosing the right clutch kit for the W59 transmission

1. What's the practical difference between a 900 & 1200 foot pound pressure plate? (yes, I know, 300 foot pounds).
2. Do you bother replacing non torque to yield pressure plate bolts?
3. Do you change the teeth spacing in your flywheel?

I called Marlin Crawler (+1-559-252-7295) today who does not offer an OEM spec Aisin 900 foot pound pressure plate in any of their 5-piece clutch kits.

The only kit they have to fit my vehicle is the MCCL-128 for $300
* Aisin 1200 pound pressure plate
* Seico clutch with steel springs
* Nachi pilot bearing
* Nachi throwout bearing
* Plastic spline alignment tool
<https://www.marlincrawler.com/clutch/heavy-duty/clutch-tacoma/1995-04-4cyl-1200-lb-clutch-kit>

They recommend pressure plate bolts even though they mentioned they're not "torque to yield", whatever that means to me in practice:
* MCHT-411
<https://www.marlincrawler.com/hardware-tools/hardware/heavy-duty-pressure-plate-bolt-kit>

They also sell a flywheel where you can specify the teeth spacing, again, whatever that means to me in practice.
* MCCL-221A
<https://www.marlincrawler.com/clutch/flywheel/flywheel-i4-27-liter>

Basic homework questions that someone with experience might know:
1. What's the practical difference between a 900/1200 pound pressure plate?
2. Do you bother replacing non torque-to-yield pressure plate bolts?
3. Do you change the teeth spacing in your flywheel? Why?

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

Just Curious why you would use Gear oil instead of Brake Fluid in your clutch Hydraulic System ??

habanero

I am an....older....woman with somewhat arthritic knees- my personal experience in relation to the question:
Weve got a 96 with a WabFab aisin 900# and a 99 4Runner with Marlin's 1200#, both v6, both daily drivers.
My answer is I actually like the feeling of Marlin's kit a tad better but they are very similar in effort.
When I replace the 96's clutch again it will be with Marlin's kit.

Space-Junk showed me this link. It's not about our trucks specifically but is still very relevant and worth reading through regarding tightening the pressure plate:
http://www.customtacos.com/forum/13-...violently.html

Both flywheels were turned and the 99 needed a rear main seal as well.

!! Good catch !! Given the 2.7 liter and the mt-90 hopefully he meant in the trans!

SodiumFlouride

Thanks for that information because my baby sister is in good shape but not really strong overall compared to a guy.

While I know EVERYONE says great things about 1,200 foot-pound Marlin Crawler clutch kits I called them at (559) 252-7295 yesterday and today and I don't think they can tell us what the difference is between a 900 foot pound pressure plate and a 1,200 foot pound pressure plate because yesterday the answer I received was "everyone is different" (which is an utterly useless answer) and today, I took down names, and spoke with Brendan who said "I don't know what the difference is" between the 900 foot pound pressure plate and the 1,200 foot pound pressure plate.

All Brendan could say is that they have "big wheels" on their trucks, so they need the 1,200 foot pound pressure plates, but when I mentioned that a 4Runner engine only generates about about 278 foot pounds of torque he just said that he didn't know the answer to any of my questions. I did ask him if he could measure the diameter of the flywheel and the inner and outer diameter of the friction disc, but, understandably, he didn't want to open a box (which I completely understand) where I could figure out from the surface area what the ratio is between flywheel and clutch disc.

It's a little disconcerting that nobody we can talk to at Marlin Crawler even remotely knows what a 1,200 pound clutch does that is practicable in a vehicle, where I have to wonder if ANYONE actually knows what it does, in a logical sense since you (apparently) only need 300 foot pounds in the first place.

Thanks for that read. I'll check it out! Much appreciated.

This will be the second clutch job on this vehicle with 150K miles (the first being at about 75K miles) but I don't know if the flywheel was touched the first time.
Just in case, I have lined up a flywheel machine shop who will turn it for $60 but he only works weekdays (which is a scheduling hassle).
I have a mic and calipers - does anyone know what the minimum thickness spec is?
I didn't list some other parts that I "may" need to get at the same time which are:
* Release fork $27 PN 31204-20071 (is this often needed?)
* Ring gear $112 PN 13453-20010 (is this often needed?)
* Rear main seal $33 PN 90311-80004 (everyone says to do this while you're already there, and use Toyota FIPG).
Anything else commonly needed?

I fixed it in an edit, as you are correct. I couldn't fit all 2.7 liters into that little clutch release cylinder anyway!

SodiumFlouride

Good catch.
Thanks for keeping me honest!

Besides, I hate making mistakes when I write up stuff because I want other noobs to be able to follow in my footsteps so that the job is always easier for the guy after me than it was for me to figure it out (where it always seems that I'm the first guy on the planet to ask some technical questions that I think are basic and obvious to ask).

Even though I bought 2 liters of ATE Super Blue DOT4 racing fluid, I only used a very small amount (maybe 8 or 10 ounces in total after bench and vehicle bleeding?) for both the clutch master cylinder and clutch release cylinder (aka clutch slave cylinder).

I may note for the next noob that instead of purchasing 2 liters of brake fluid, I should have purchased two additional spare bleeder valves instead, which would have made the bench bleeding enormously easier, and it would prevent leaks while the parts were being put in the vehicle.

You can see in my photo below my attempt at fabricating "plugs" on the fly, which didn't work all that well, and where I wished I had known to just buy a couple of spare bleeder valves beforehand.

habanero

Doubt it will be an issue at 150,xxx miles, but give the clutch pedal where the spring contacts it for excessive wear.
My 96's at 205,000 miles:
Old vs new- the spring looked like this:


The clutch pedal looked like this:


There is a mod for this using a cheap little aftermarket spring on the off chance you've got this kind of wear.

It is hard to tell people what a certain clutch will feel like because everyone is different. All I know that I drive both on the road and they are very similar to me and my bad knees- I personally like the feeling of the Marlin slightly better than the Aisin. The 1200# should be less likely to slip under duress, such as off-road, but for dirt I only drive the 96 with the 900# so no experience with the other on dirt yet.
Two clutch changes in 150,000 miles seems like a lot but that's individual too, different driving styles and all that.

If it matters I am a mountain biker/ hiker/ backpacker so while they're crunchy, the old getaway sticks aren't particularly wimpy.

SodiumFlouride

Thanks for helping out, where EVERYONE who has this double-coil torsion spring has the same issue that the center plastic bushing wears out, and when metal gets on metal, it squeaks like crazy as it wears a groove, eventually causing the pedal to stick in place on the return cycle due to the other two plastic bushings on the end wearing as the spring changes position due to the strange wear.

Like most people, I removed the torsion spring altogether and inserted an asymmetric Toyota brake pedal return spring. Nobody gave me the dimensions and nobody has it perfect yet but what we need is someone to measure where the brake linear spring touches the pedal bracket assembly when you press the pedal, as the spring taps the assembly making an imperceptibly slight tapping sound when that happens. Most people don't notice it, but I do.

What I'm going to do this weekend (it isn't mine - it's my baby sister's vehicle) is adjust the only thing in the hydraulic system that can be adjusted, which is the pushrod coming out of the clutch 'master cylinder which is supposed to be adjusted for pushrod-to-piston-cup clearance anyway.

I'm not sure which direction I need to adjust it to move the clutch engagement point lower toward the floorboards, but I think I need to move the brass locknut away from the floorboards to accomplish that (does that sound like the right direction?).

When I'm done with the locknut position, then I will screw the clutch pedal back on snugly.

I finally figured out, after asking many people, that Marlin Crawler either lied, or their phone personnel don't know what they're talking about, at least the two guys that answered the phone when I asked.

There are only two options that anyone can conclude from what Marlin Crawler told me on the phone.

Marlin Crawler personnel either didn't know the answer, or they just plain lied - because the answer turns out to be super simple.
1. There is no advantage to a street vehicle between a 900 foot pound and a 1200 foot pound pressure 'plate. None.
2. The only advantage is for competition use where you gain engagement time for quicker shifts.
3. Everything else is BAD about a 1200 foot pound pressure 'plate versus a 900 foot pound pressure 'plate.

The sad thing is that I know everyone LOVES Marlin Crawler - but I can tell you honestly - they either don't know what they're talking about - or - they lied - because this is basic stuff and there's no way I wouldn't have understood that had they said that to me instead of "I don't know the answer".

The good news is that I can get an OEM Aisin 'clutch 'kit for about half the price anyway, so it's better and cheaper (for a non-competition vehicle).
How does this 5-piece $170 Aisin OEM kit (TDT-C-95-04-2.7) look to you and to others?
<http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/aisin-seco-clutch-kits.html>
I don't know anything about clutches except where I ask and people give me answers, so it's good to know that you think 75K miles is too short for a clutch.
The OEM 900 foot-pound Aisin clutch definitely went at 75K miles - of that there is no doubt - because I personally saw the clutch plate and I felt the slippage when I tested it (it's not my vehicle though).

How many miles do you folks generally get on a stock clutch plate?

habanero

My 96 needed a throw-out bearing around 210,000 miles went ahead and threw the kit in for obvious reasons. Plate was fairly worn, but not finished. The new one has around 80,000 miles on it and still good,
The 99 needed a clutch around the same mileage.
My Bronco II got a clutch at 140,000 miles only because 5th gear exploded and I had the thing apart.

Still, different driving styles = different wear and that's only 3 trucks driven by 2 people. Not a large database.
You've really done your homework, awesome. At this point you know more than I do.