dfoxengr

couldnt find what i was looking for, but i want to know why it "wont" work.

it bolts up, so all that you need to do is modify electrical and fuel.
the mechanical part of the fuel system is easy, so its just wiring and management.

why cant my tacoma boost with its stock components?

i believe that all that would be needed would be an Apex AFC (since it is universal), 7mge injectors, walbro 190lph, FMU, and the SC.
am i missing something here?

how come people say it cant be done and the ecu wont see it. it doesnt need to see it in a stock way with the AFC.

are 96 injectors peak/hold or are they saturated?
im sure the 7mge's are saturated, along with the newer tacomas.

-derek

midiwall

You actually want more like 65psi on the rails in our engines. The stock fuel pump won't make that happen, the Walbro 190 will.

If you're actually asking about why can't you just overdrive the stock fuel pump to get more pressure, well, you can, but it's not the "right" solution. There's a box called "Boost-A-Pump" from Kenne-Bell that will do just that. But you're simply pushing the stock fuel pump past it's design parameters which will lead to early failure.


You need to address being able to modify the timing. The AFC will only fake the ECU into pushing more fuel. You'll want something like the SplitSecond FTC or Perfect Power SMT-6.

Also, like I think I mentioned in another thread, the stock barrel size on the 7MGEs is too fat for the manifold. Are you looking to drill out the manifold? If so, and if you don't have a set of them now, then I'll sell you the 7MGTEs I'm sitting on for a good price.

Oh... something else, I think the 7MGEs are 440cc injectors, right? Those will be a BEAR to tune at idle. They will want to run WAY rich and the ECU doesn't really have the resolution to tone them down while still letting them go hog wild up top.

I've given up trying to use them and am now looking for a deal on 370's.

dfoxengr

i dont know what the 7mge's are. ill look into it though.

and by boosting 30pisg i wasnt talking about fuel pressure. i was talking about boost, as in turbo.

and i wasnt ever saying you dont need a bigger fuel pump. i realize you do. (been into turbo hondas for years)

the AFC can do timing too i believe, but any tuning option will get you the results.

basically if this is all thats needed, why do people say you cant?
the setups we are discussing would make a pretty decent one, that i wouldnt be afraid to run. after professional dyno tuning of course.

midiwall

'k. Maybe's it's the difference between the MGTE and MGE, I know the MGTE's are 440's.


Whoops, duh. sorry.

One of the more engine-performance aligned forums around is CustomTacos (http://www.customtacos.com). There are guys there at 15psi, and I think a few are above 20. From what I gather, the bottom line is that the engine can handle the boost, but people seem to be having issues with finding space for the larger turbos, intercoolers and the plumbing.

I trust you've heard about Brian Trager's truck? It's "Gadget"'s original pet performance project. Check here for a quick pic:
http://f2uning.com/pages/10/index.htm ("Twin Turbo 4Runner")


Hmmm... Umm:
http://www.apexi-usa.com/product_ele...=202&pageNum=1

The AFC-II only talks about modifying fuel. In fact, it doesn't look like any of the Apexi controllers do timing:
http://www.apexi-usa.com/product_electronics.asp

You _will_ need timing control.


Yeah, I dunno. I don't understand why the engine electronics in a 96 Tacoma are different than those in in a 96 4Runner. I can tell you that my setup runs very nice.

Did you ever get a response from anyone saying that you "can't" do this on a Tacoma?

quattro

If you really want to get into making THAT kind of power, then you need to quit messing around with add-on band-aids to the stock system. Go fully stand alone like: MoTEC, 034-EFI and Autronic to name a few. While not on 4Rnr's, I've done more than my fair share of EFI conversions and programming.

To run those sorts of boost pressures you're going to probably need to lower the base CR of the engine with some sort of custom copper head gasket. There's a gazzillion other things to make sure are needed as well. Plenty of web sites to talk you through it. Water-Injection, 3D fuel & timing maps, GPO controls for cooling systems, plausible max duty cycle of components, altitude and relative air density compensation, event based vs. degree based management... the list is exhaustive.

I want to know why you would want to boost the engine that far. You'd be better off dropping a V8 in with mild upgrades. More torque, less hassle. I bet in the end it would cost less too. Motor mounts and costum flex plates are a LOT less expensive than all the control systems and components to make big boost, while keeping it streetable and reliable.

I'm only offering this advice on the BTDT principal. I've spen a LOT of money and a TON of time chasing big HP in boosted motors. It's a ton of fun to be sure, but 2-5x the work for the fun in a ratio.

If I have mis-understood your intended direction with your project please accept my appologies. Just trying to share what I've learned in the last decade and having spent major amounts of money.

midiwall

I'm curious what you think the threshold is on when you stop messing with piggybacks and bolt-ons and move to engine swaps.

Bolt-ons will get you close to about 280rwhp on this engine without a ton of effort. Pushing past 300rwhp is a bit of work (re: $$$) but is still "easy" to do. Getting to 320 is pushing into the exotic league (re: $$$$$$).

I'm pretty sure I'm sitting around 270rwhp, with the push past 300rwhp sitting on the floor of the garage waiting for a water tank. It's all bolt-on, just one piggyback unit, and a bit of sweat.


I FULLY agree with you, I'm just curious what you think the threshold is between sanity and insanity.

dfoxengr

i totally wasnt talking about boosting any sort of high numbers on my tacoma, lol.
i am an engineering student and ive been into boosted motors for like 5 years now, so i think i know alittle about what i want for myself.

i was just saying if a stock 92 honda can run it why cant my tacoma run the TRD charger, lol.

might be the difference between the MGTE and MGE i guess.
are you getting an AWIC? midi...

and i guess i dont remember the AFC's as well as i thought.

and yes i got a few rude emaild from barb at trdparts where she was very short and almost sarcastic about me asking.

midiwall

AWIC? You mean the SplitSecond AIC? Or do you mean Alcohol/Water Injection C___?

Yes.. I have a methanol system here ready to install, I'm just waiting on a backordered water tank. (actually, I see that they're in stock now... BRIAN! )

Bummer on the bad responses from Barb. Have you tried talking to Phil (on here as "Strap22") directly?

dfoxengr

u said water tank, i thought you referring to a cooler.

dfoxengr

anyone have any more info?

hondavxr

It's the way the motor are designed. There is better flow, and better burn control in a Civic. If you take the heads off the Tacoma and Civic, with out even going to a flow machine, you can tell how the air flows in and out, the Civic head is better. I have never seen a stock Civic do 30 psi though. That high of pressure and a non-intercooled s/c will be hot like an oven. The problem with s/c's is that you have to cool charged air where air is first being pressured. With a s/c it is usually right after the t/b. It's hard to fit a intercooler in between the t/b and intake manifold. Sorry about the ramblings, but in the end. The Civic and Tacoma motors are two different beast. Toyotas are not really known for high flowing, hp per liter motors, they are just known for durability.

dfoxengr

i WASNT talking about running tons of boost through my tacoma, lol

and i WAS talking about turbo IC'd civics.

dfoxengr

i WASNT talking about running tons of boost through my tacoma, lol

and i WAS talking about turbo IC'd civics.

and please everyone get off the civic topic.

i need info on my toyota, not my hatch. i can goto the other forum im on for that.

hondavxr

The Tacoma cannot run the s/c, because in stock form with ecu, fuel, and etc it was not meant to run the s/c. I think Toyota just got lazy and gave everyone the s/c to make the crowds happy. They didnt think that there were going to be all these problems. Look at the first years the s/c came out. Motors going bad, chargers not lasting long. Toyota ecus are hard to crack. It's not very aftermarket friendly. I think that is the main reason why you don't see many aftermarket r & d. It's mostly your regular Joe's and Bob's doing on hit and miss theory.

MTL_4runner

Derek, what kind of Eng degree are you going for?
There are alot of engineers on YT and I don't think anyone is doubting your competency at this point.

The Honda and Toyota motors are totally different beasts, different design, different application, different use. That being said comparing a Civic and a truck is an apples to oranges comparison as I am sure you are aware. To make a long story short, you basically answered your own question in your first post above. You can use a S/C on a Tacoma relatively trouble free as long as you do the right fuel, timing and tranny mods (if you have an auto) first.

Alot of this has been pioneered already by various members on the board. You are not ever likely to get 30 psi into a 3.4L using a TRD roots blower (you can't have an intercooler on that type of S/C), but with significant mods (and $$$$), that type of boost pressure is possible. If you are looking to see what stuff you'd need to get to run the TRD S/C you can go to to URD and check out the different kits available. http://www.urdusa.com/index.php?cPath=1_3

People on YT can tell you what works and how to set it up, but if you want to know/argue about all the technical specifics of why each component needs to be upgraded, what the stocks specs are and why the stock system fails to deliver, the best person to email would be Gadget (and cross your fingers that he'll email back) since he has done a lion's share of the initial pioneering. I will say there is nothing in the URD fuel upgrade kit that is superfluous.

midiwall

Jamie, VXR...

Based on his comments in another thread and talking with him offline, I think what Derek is looking for is someone to confirm or deny the rumor/statement that has been made here and other places that the ECU in the 1996 Tacoma can NOT handle a supercharger _in the same way_ that the ECU from a 1996 4Runner (or other Toyota 3.4L laced vehicle) can.

We all know that the ECU in either case wasn't _designed_ for this, but we also know that people are succesfully running this setup. Piggybacks Rule!

So the bottom line is...(how'd I do Derek? )

MTL_4runner

Ahhh, gotcha, thanks!

I'd still say Gadget would be the best one to try for an answer to that one. I'm not sure why you couldn't swap out ECUs with the 4runner even if it was different (need to verify pinout first) then just run a piggyback controller and the fuel upgrades.

dfoxengr

hondavxr: ive been talking about tuning devices, not running it in stock form.

MTL: check my sig and youll see my degree. and again please get off the honda example, of course i know theyre different. and i also now know that nobody can see an example without arguing about it. this thread has nothing to do with honda motors.
and im talking about a 96 tacoma, where many people say you cant run the SC on it. i want to know why.

WOW midiwall actually read and comprehended what i was asking. thank you.


MTL again: thats what im trying to figure out.
i dont know why a control device wont even allow this stuff to happen on the 96 ecu. why is it such a "black box"?]

-derek

midiwall

Well, remember... we've talked in other threads and a couple of PMs. I dunno that someone coming in to this thread and only reading your first post would have understood what you're looking for.

It's all good.. We just need to find a real answer for you!

MTL_4runner

Yep, the phrasing of the question was what threw everyone way off (bringing in the comparison to S/C Civic engines and their ECUs in your first post futher muddied the waters quite a bit nor did everyone know about your PMs or other discussions, but hey, water under the bridge), but I think everyone is finally on the same page in this thread.

The Taco came out in 95.5 (4runner not until 96) so there may have been an ECU in that model which got a fuel/timing map that was later revised for 96 4runners and Tacos to provide more buffer for HP increases (there may have been some of those earlier 95.5 ECUs used in the 96 Tacos too, I don't know the answer to that for sure). Again Gadget has had alot of experience especially on the older 3rd gens and Tacos so unless someone on here knew the answer, he'd be the man to ask (that's who I'd ask for that anyway).

Derek, it's hard to tell what all the acronyms at the bottom of your sig were but can I assume Baja means SAE Mini Baja?
.....or something else?