Elvota's 3.4 swap
12-11-2007, 10:45 AM
#181
Registered User
Steve,
The reason your setup starts and dies is because the fuel pump only runs when the key is in the start position. When you release the key from 'start' to 'on', the relay is de-energized. This is because the 'To AFM' wire isn't going to the the old AFM anymore. In the 3.0 setup, the AFM had a set of contacts on the flapper door that triggered the fuel pump relay when the engine was running. (Air door open at all = path to ground; air door closed / not running = no path to ground). In order to get fuel pressure when cranking, the start signal provides an additional relay closure to run the pump. You need to use the 'To AFM' wire to trigger the pump via the 'To FC at ECM'.. The ECM provides a ground via the 'To FC at ECM' in order to energize the relay. You don't need a diode in this scenario; the factory didn't use one either as the ECU is already using TTL components.
To test the operation, simply ground the 'To AFM' wire with a jumper wire and turn the ignition on. The pump should run and the motor should stay running, barring additional troubles. To test the output of the 'FC at ECM', simply attach a test light to +12v and hook the other side to 'FC at ECM'. The lamp should not light unless the engine is running. I believe it uses the igniter feedback signal to verify the engine operation. DO NOT use the ECU FC wire to run the pump or anything else directly, you will fry the internal transistor in the ECU. That's what the relay is for. A relay typically uses less than 300mA (1/3 amp) on the coil side.
Will
The reason your setup starts and dies is because the fuel pump only runs when the key is in the start position. When you release the key from 'start' to 'on', the relay is de-energized. This is because the 'To AFM' wire isn't going to the the old AFM anymore. In the 3.0 setup, the AFM had a set of contacts on the flapper door that triggered the fuel pump relay when the engine was running. (Air door open at all = path to ground; air door closed / not running = no path to ground). In order to get fuel pressure when cranking, the start signal provides an additional relay closure to run the pump. You need to use the 'To AFM' wire to trigger the pump via the 'To FC at ECM'.. The ECM provides a ground via the 'To FC at ECM' in order to energize the relay. You don't need a diode in this scenario; the factory didn't use one either as the ECU is already using TTL components.
To test the operation, simply ground the 'To AFM' wire with a jumper wire and turn the ignition on. The pump should run and the motor should stay running, barring additional troubles. To test the output of the 'FC at ECM', simply attach a test light to +12v and hook the other side to 'FC at ECM'. The lamp should not light unless the engine is running. I believe it uses the igniter feedback signal to verify the engine operation. DO NOT use the ECU FC wire to run the pump or anything else directly, you will fry the internal transistor in the ECU. That's what the relay is for. A relay typically uses less than 300mA (1/3 amp) on the coil side.
Will
12-11-2007, 11:17 AM
#183
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Thread Starter
All right... some testing updates.
1. I temporarily installed the 3.4 relay. The reason I did this was to eliminate the "double ground" for the starter relay I was seeing on the diagrams. So now, the B-W wire from the 3.0 starter relay goes only to the STA pin @ the 3.4 ECM and of course to Plug A on the starter itself. Engine starts, then stops... just like before.
2. I connected the 3.0 fuel pump line (L wire) to the 3.4 COR fuel pump pin (L-O wire). When ignition is at IG2 position, and I ground the FC pin (G-Y wire ) from the 3.4 relay, fuel pump turns on.
So, the 3.4 COR relay is getting power from IG2. It is also capable of turning on the fuel pump.
3. I then connected the the FC pin from the 3.4 COR to the FC pin on the 3.4 ECM. With key at ST1 (starter engaged, motor running for a second), the 3.4 COR activates and fuel pump turns on.
So, my 3.4 COR appears to be wired correctly to the 3.0 body harness. Power goes to where it should, when it should. Fuel pump is being controlled by the 3.4 ECM and is on when engine is firing,
4. When the engine dies, the 3.4 COR stays on for about another second, then clicks off. The 3.4 ECM must be dictating this operation, as the 3.4 ECM now controls the ground point of the COR, and in turn the fuel pump.
To me, it seems like the ECM is not seeing something it needs to see to keep the motor running, or to know that the motor is running.
I have checked that the BATT pin on the 3.4 ECM and it has 12v at all times. The ability for the ECM to activate the COR indicates to me that the ECM has power.
When key is at IG2, I have 12v at the MAF and VSV's... and this power is fed through the EFI relay, which is activated by IG2. So EFI relay must be working, and power downstream is getting to where it needs to go.
When key is at IG2, I have 12v at the igniter. This circuit is fed directly from IG2.
Question: Would a OBDII scanner be able to help me at this point? Without the vehicle running, will it show codes? Maybe a more advanced OBDII software that actually "sees" what the ECM is seeing would be more helpful to me?
Any suggestions as to what to start looking at next would of course be greatly appreciated.
So far, I am greatly unimpressed with the power of the 3.4 over the 3.0. I can't even get out of the driveway with this new motor.
1. I temporarily installed the 3.4 relay. The reason I did this was to eliminate the "double ground" for the starter relay I was seeing on the diagrams. So now, the B-W wire from the 3.0 starter relay goes only to the STA pin @ the 3.4 ECM and of course to Plug A on the starter itself. Engine starts, then stops... just like before.
2. I connected the 3.0 fuel pump line (L wire) to the 3.4 COR fuel pump pin (L-O wire). When ignition is at IG2 position, and I ground the FC pin (G-Y wire ) from the 3.4 relay, fuel pump turns on.
So, the 3.4 COR relay is getting power from IG2. It is also capable of turning on the fuel pump.
3. I then connected the the FC pin from the 3.4 COR to the FC pin on the 3.4 ECM. With key at ST1 (starter engaged, motor running for a second), the 3.4 COR activates and fuel pump turns on.
So, my 3.4 COR appears to be wired correctly to the 3.0 body harness. Power goes to where it should, when it should. Fuel pump is being controlled by the 3.4 ECM and is on when engine is firing,
4. When the engine dies, the 3.4 COR stays on for about another second, then clicks off. The 3.4 ECM must be dictating this operation, as the 3.4 ECM now controls the ground point of the COR, and in turn the fuel pump.
To me, it seems like the ECM is not seeing something it needs to see to keep the motor running, or to know that the motor is running.
I have checked that the BATT pin on the 3.4 ECM and it has 12v at all times. The ability for the ECM to activate the COR indicates to me that the ECM has power.
When key is at IG2, I have 12v at the MAF and VSV's... and this power is fed through the EFI relay, which is activated by IG2. So EFI relay must be working, and power downstream is getting to where it needs to go.
When key is at IG2, I have 12v at the igniter. This circuit is fed directly from IG2.
Question: Would a OBDII scanner be able to help me at this point? Without the vehicle running, will it show codes? Maybe a more advanced OBDII software that actually "sees" what the ECM is seeing would be more helpful to me?
Any suggestions as to what to start looking at next would of course be greatly appreciated.
So far, I am greatly unimpressed with the power of the 3.4 over the 3.0. I can't even get out of the driveway with this new motor.
Last edited by Elvota; 12-11-2007 at 11:19 AM.
12-11-2007, 11:30 AM
#184
Registered User
Question: Would a OBDII scanner be able to help me at this point? Without the vehicle running, will it show codes? Maybe a more advanced OBDII software that actually "sees" what the ECM is seeing would be more helpful to me?
Any suggestions as to what to start looking at next would of course be greatly appreciated.
So far, I am greatly unimpressed with the power of the 3.4 over the 3.0. I can't even get out of the driveway with this new motor.
Soon for both of us im sure. Yes the code if there is one could show. It could be a simple sensor thats bad and when thats the case the code would pop up right away. As for like egr and o2 stuff that takes cycles to show sometimes. I bet it it were a bad MAF or something similar the code would pop right up. Ide get the OBDII connector and give it a shot.
(edit)Also the truck doesnt need to run in order to run codes
Last edited by fillsrunner4; 12-11-2007 at 11:32 AM.
12-11-2007, 12:23 PM
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All right... some testing updates.
1. I temporarily installed the 3.4 relay. The reason I did this was to eliminate the "double ground" for the starter relay I was seeing on the diagrams. So now, the B-W wire from the 3.0 starter relay goes only to the STA pin @ the 3.4 ECM and of course to Plug A on the starter itself. Engine starts, then stops... just like before.
2. I connected the 3.0 fuel pump line (L wire) to the 3.4 COR fuel pump pin (L-O wire). When ignition is at IG2 position, and I ground the FC pin (G-Y wire ) from the 3.4 relay, fuel pump turns on.
So, the 3.4 COR relay is getting power from IG2. It is also capable of turning on the fuel pump.
3. I then connected the the FC pin from the 3.4 COR to the FC pin on the 3.4 ECM. With key at ST1 (starter engaged, motor running for a second), the 3.4 COR activates and fuel pump turns on.
So, my 3.4 COR appears to be wired correctly to the 3.0 body harness. Power goes to where it should, when it should. Fuel pump is being controlled by the 3.4 ECM and is on when engine is firing,
4. When the engine dies, the 3.4 COR stays on for about another second, then clicks off. The 3.4 ECM must be dictating this operation, as the 3.4 ECM now controls the ground point of the COR, and in turn the fuel pump.
To me, it seems like the ECM is not seeing something it needs to see to keep the motor running, or to know that the motor is running.
I have checked that the BATT pin on the 3.4 ECM and it has 12v at all times. The ability for the ECM to activate the COR indicates to me that the ECM has power.
When key is at IG2, I have 12v at the MAF and VSV's... and this power is fed through the EFI relay, which is activated by IG2. So EFI relay must be working, and power downstream is getting to where it needs to go.
When key is at IG2, I have 12v at the igniter. This circuit is fed directly from IG2.
Question: Would a OBDII scanner be able to help me at this point? Without the vehicle running, will it show codes? Maybe a more advanced OBDII software that actually "sees" what the ECM is seeing would be more helpful to me?
Any suggestions as to what to start looking at next would of course be greatly appreciated.
So far, I am greatly unimpressed with the power of the 3.4 over the 3.0. I can't even get out of the driveway with this new motor.
1. I temporarily installed the 3.4 relay. The reason I did this was to eliminate the "double ground" for the starter relay I was seeing on the diagrams. So now, the B-W wire from the 3.0 starter relay goes only to the STA pin @ the 3.4 ECM and of course to Plug A on the starter itself. Engine starts, then stops... just like before.
2. I connected the 3.0 fuel pump line (L wire) to the 3.4 COR fuel pump pin (L-O wire). When ignition is at IG2 position, and I ground the FC pin (G-Y wire ) from the 3.4 relay, fuel pump turns on.
So, the 3.4 COR relay is getting power from IG2. It is also capable of turning on the fuel pump.
3. I then connected the the FC pin from the 3.4 COR to the FC pin on the 3.4 ECM. With key at ST1 (starter engaged, motor running for a second), the 3.4 COR activates and fuel pump turns on.
So, my 3.4 COR appears to be wired correctly to the 3.0 body harness. Power goes to where it should, when it should. Fuel pump is being controlled by the 3.4 ECM and is on when engine is firing,
4. When the engine dies, the 3.4 COR stays on for about another second, then clicks off. The 3.4 ECM must be dictating this operation, as the 3.4 ECM now controls the ground point of the COR, and in turn the fuel pump.
To me, it seems like the ECM is not seeing something it needs to see to keep the motor running, or to know that the motor is running.
I have checked that the BATT pin on the 3.4 ECM and it has 12v at all times. The ability for the ECM to activate the COR indicates to me that the ECM has power.
When key is at IG2, I have 12v at the MAF and VSV's... and this power is fed through the EFI relay, which is activated by IG2. So EFI relay must be working, and power downstream is getting to where it needs to go.
When key is at IG2, I have 12v at the igniter. This circuit is fed directly from IG2.
Question: Would a OBDII scanner be able to help me at this point? Without the vehicle running, will it show codes? Maybe a more advanced OBDII software that actually "sees" what the ECM is seeing would be more helpful to me?
Any suggestions as to what to start looking at next would of course be greatly appreciated.
So far, I am greatly unimpressed with the power of the 3.4 over the 3.0. I can't even get out of the driveway with this new motor.
Things you must have installed and properly wired (to my knowledge) to run are the injectors, igniter (make sure the igniter body is grounded), coil packs, IAC valve, cam and crank sensors, coolant temp, TPS and MAF sensors. Without one or more of those, the motor won't run. From your description, it could be a MAF issue, a cam sensor, even the IAC valve not wired or working properly. You're sure it's not something blatantly obvious like a gaping vacuum port for the brake booster
You should be able to pinpoint the trouble by examining the codes; the OBDII port is easy to wire- only one wire from the ECU for the communication and the other 3 are power and ground. As I stated before, you can use an OBDII plug from any vehicle, grab one from the first 96 or newer vehicle you find in the salvage yard and wire it according to the FSM.
3 questions for you-
Is all your stuff from the same donor vehicle?
What year donor vehicle and what model?
Do you get a steady check engine light with ignition on or does it blink?
From my experience, I discovered differences between the early and late motors and respective parts- a 95.5 ECU will work with components up to mid 98, but not components from 99 - up and vice versa.. An 01 ECU will work with components back to 99 but not earlier. The components I'm speaking of are the MAF, injectors, and possibly other parts..
Another thing, if you're running newer 4Runner stuff you could have an anti-theft issue with the ECU; although I believe it's 99 up 4Runners only.
Party on; you'll get it figured out
12-11-2007, 12:41 PM
#186
Contributing Member
Thread Starter
Sounds like the fuel pump issue is resolved; now onto other things. For the record, you don't need oxygen sensors and or air fuel ratio sensors, knock sensors or evap controls to get the motor to start and stay running. Granted it'll give you codes but it will run and drive without them.
coil packs, IAC valve, cam and crank sensors, coolant temp, TPS and MAF sensors. Without one or more of those, the motor won't run. From your description, it could be a MAF issue, a cam sensor, even the IAC valve not wired or working properly. You're sure it's not something blatantly obvious like a gaping vacuum port for the brake booster
You should be able to pinpoint the trouble by examining the codes; the OBDII port is easy to wire- only one wire from the ECU for the communication and the other 3 are power and ground. As I stated before, you can use an OBDII plug from any vehicle, grab one from the first 96 or newer vehicle you find in the salvage yard and wire it according to the FSM.
Yes, all from same vehicle.
'96 4Runner, 5spd. My 4Runner is a '90, 5spd... had the 3.0 before I started all of this.
Man I hope so. I think the next step is to find a way to get codes. I am going to work on getting a OBDII scanner and the plug installed. I have all the leads ready, just need the plug.
12-11-2007, 01:17 PM
#188
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12-11-2007, 01:28 PM
#189
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What's the best way to check these sensors for operation? I need to check all the lines going to each, make sure none are broken or go to the wrong place... but is there anyway to "see" the signal a sensor should be sending? I have triple checked all vacuum lines. Booster is connected.
Yeah... I have got to get a OBDII port hooked up and start pulling some codes. I have scanned a few vehicles at salvage, even several '96 and newer 4Runner but either can't find the plug, don't know what I am looking for or they have already been taken.
Yeah... I have got to get a OBDII port hooked up and start pulling some codes. I have scanned a few vehicles at salvage, even several '96 and newer 4Runner but either can't find the plug, don't know what I am looking for or they have already been taken.
You can check each one for the correct readings by methodically eliminating the variables, one at a time. On the cam and crank sensors, you can check continuity on the sensors themselves with your DMM across the sensor. Off the top of my head, they should read between 20 and 150 ohms or something. To test the output, set your DMM to AC millivolts and crank the engine.. You should see pulses of up to several hundred millivolts.. On the coolant sensor, check the resistance with a DMM, it should read between like 20 to 400 ohms or something. The MAF is a bit different; testing it is tricky so it's best to make sure it's wired correctly by verifying power and ground and doing some loop testing. I've done this on vehicles when the trouble refuses to show itself. Disconnect the component- say the MAF for example. Ensure the related pins to the component have necessary power and ground and it's in the right spots. On the signaling pins, remove the corresponding ECU plug(s), loop across (insert test lead into) one end and verify it shows up at the other end and in the right spot. I use a 5 foot test lead attached to my DMM with a male pin capable of being inserted into the ecu plug, have a map of the ecu pins handy and go through each ecu plug, crossing out each one in the right spot. This will confirm everything is where it should be. Tedious process but it will eliminate, without a doubt, the possibility of anything not wired correctly.
As far as the OBDII plug, look under the dash of the car you're currently driving (unless it's 95 or older) and you will see the plug-
http://www.carplugs.com/images/Obd2-female.jpg
Per the ISO guidelines, the plug is to be standard for all vehicles and accessible from the driver's side. They're almost always located in or in front of the driver's hush panel above the brake pedal / below the knees.
12-11-2007, 03:03 PM
#191
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Thread Starter
All right... so it's raining but I figured why not try and hook up a OBDII scanner and see what codes I get.
Borrowed the scanner, plugged in the necessary pins and only got one code:
P1300
Now, this OBDII list (link) says P1300 equals a "Boost Calibration Fault". But what does that mean?
Also, the OBDII scanner screen scrolled across the words "ignition or misfire" below the code display. I borrowed it for "free" from Autozone through their Loan-A-Tool program. Probably not very advanced, but seems like a mid-level model.
So, any ideas what to start looking for? Does this sound like the MAF or something obvious... or could it be almost anything?
I am going to start looking through my '96 FSM's as it shows error codes here and there, but might be hard to find this specific one.
Borrowed the scanner, plugged in the necessary pins and only got one code:
P1300
Now, this OBDII list (link) says P1300 equals a "Boost Calibration Fault". But what does that mean?
Also, the OBDII scanner screen scrolled across the words "ignition or misfire" below the code display. I borrowed it for "free" from Autozone through their Loan-A-Tool program. Probably not very advanced, but seems like a mid-level model.
So, any ideas what to start looking for? Does this sound like the MAF or something obvious... or could it be almost anything?
I am going to start looking through my '96 FSM's as it shows error codes here and there, but might be hard to find this specific one.
Last edited by Elvota; 12-11-2007 at 03:05 PM.
12-11-2007, 03:14 PM
#192
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Thread Starter
Crud...
Doing some more looking down that list and code P1300 shows up twice.
P1300:Boost Calibration Fault
P1300:Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 1
Then I see what I missed. The first P1300 is a generic trouble code, the second one listed is a Toyota specific trouble code.
So, let's go with...
P1300: Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 1
Now I just have to figure out what that is. Sorry about the confusion.
Doing some more looking down that list and code P1300 shows up twice.
P1300:Boost Calibration Fault
P1300:Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 1
Then I see what I missed. The first P1300 is a generic trouble code, the second one listed is a Toyota specific trouble code.
So, let's go with...
P1300: Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 1
Now I just have to figure out what that is. Sorry about the confusion.
12-11-2007, 03:20 PM
#193
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My FSM has P1300 as an Igniter Circuit Malfunction.
EDIT: Guess I was too late. Do you need the pages I have for this?
EDIT: Guess I was too late. Do you need the pages I have for this?
Last edited by Bighead; 12-11-2007 at 03:21 PM.
12-11-2007, 03:23 PM
#194
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Thread Starter
Hmmm... check this out....
Getting closer. "IGf signal does not return from igniter". According to the EWD, that signal should be going from IGf on the igniter to the IGf port of the ECM via a B-Y wire. Maybe that line is bad.
Would the ECM give up firing at that point, or would it go through the rest of the process. Guess I am asking if the ECM sees this problem right away, and then just stops. As in this error code is just the tip of the iceburg.
Getting closer. "IGf signal does not return from igniter". According to the EWD, that signal should be going from IGf on the igniter to the IGf port of the ECM via a B-Y wire. Maybe that line is bad.
Would the ECM give up firing at that point, or would it go through the rest of the process. Guess I am asking if the ECM sees this problem right away, and then just stops. As in this error code is just the tip of the iceburg.
Last edited by Elvota; 12-11-2007 at 03:26 PM.
12-11-2007, 03:24 PM
#195
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12-11-2007, 03:42 PM
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Hmmm... check this out....
Getting closer. "IGf signal does not return from igniter". According to the EWD, that signal should be going from IGf on the igniter to the IGf port of the ECM via a B-Y wire. Maybe that line is bad.
Would the ECM give up firing at that point, or would it go through the rest of the process. Guess I am asking if the ECM sees this problem right away, and then just stops. As in this error code is just the tip of the iceburg.
Getting closer. "IGf signal does not return from igniter". According to the EWD, that signal should be going from IGf on the igniter to the IGf port of the ECM via a B-Y wire. Maybe that line is bad.
Would the ECM give up firing at that point, or would it go through the rest of the process. Guess I am asking if the ECM sees this problem right away, and then just stops. As in this error code is just the tip of the iceburg.
I'll bet you a six pack of beer your igniter is bad or the wiring between the igniter and ECU is bad. Fix that and your engine will run like a champ. The IGf signal is essentially what tells the ECU the engine is actually running. Curious to know if your tach works but I would assume that's not modded with the resistor yet
FWIW, I have an igniter from a 98 4Runner if needed; I would need $30 for it shipped. I also have injectors, MAF, and some misc other shiite if you need parts..
Will
12-11-2007, 03:49 PM
#197
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Thread Starter
I'll bet you a six pack of beer your igniter is bad or the wiring between the igniter and ECU is bad. Fix that and your engine will run like a champ. The IGf signal is essentially what tells the ECU the engine is actually running. Curious to know if your tach works but I would assume that's not modded with the resistor yet
FWIW, I have an igniter from a 98 4Runner if needed; I would need $30 for it shipped. I also have injectors, MAF, and some misc other shiite if you need parts..
Will
FWIW, I have an igniter from a 98 4Runner if needed; I would need $30 for it shipped. I also have injectors, MAF, and some misc other shiite if you need parts..
Will
No tach mod yet... but I do have the lead from the igniter coming into the cab. Maybe I can attach that to a off the shelf tach or similar monitoring device... do you think that would tell me anything?
Now that I am thinking about it... could that loose end (tach wire)cause the signal to be getting dropped between the igniter and ECM?
Who knows, maybe driving a six pack to St. Louis would be a good excuse to break this 3.4 in.
12-11-2007, 05:28 PM
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My plan is to check the connections ASAP. I might take you up on that igniter if it seems that is my issue.
No tach mod yet... but I do have the lead from the igniter coming into the cab. Maybe I can attach that to a off the shelf tach or similar monitoring device... do you think that would tell me anything?
Now that I am thinking about it... could that loose end (tach wire)cause the signal to be getting dropped between the igniter and ECM?
Who knows, maybe driving a six pack to St. Louis would be a good excuse to break this 3.4 in.
No tach mod yet... but I do have the lead from the igniter coming into the cab. Maybe I can attach that to a off the shelf tach or similar monitoring device... do you think that would tell me anything?
Now that I am thinking about it... could that loose end (tach wire)cause the signal to be getting dropped between the igniter and ECM?
Who knows, maybe driving a six pack to St. Louis would be a good excuse to break this 3.4 in.
Wishful thinking but the tach wire has no affect on whether it runs or not
If you drove to St Louis you would get to see a city that has been rained on for what seems like a week straight
12-11-2007, 07:03 PM
#199
Registered User
Steve, looking at the 97 3.4 "Tests with Codes" in my FSM, for P1300 it lists possible cause(s): Ignitor circuit to ECM, Ignitor, Coil or ECM.
If you haven't already, check all the coil connections. And going from your last graphic, if you swap coil positions (ie: 1 to 2) and you still get the same code you can possibly eliminate the coil as a culprit. If your code changes to a different cylinder location then you're on to something.
Do you already have this info? It is for P1300.
If you haven't already, check all the coil connections. And going from your last graphic, if you swap coil positions (ie: 1 to 2) and you still get the same code you can possibly eliminate the coil as a culprit. If your code changes to a different cylinder location then you're on to something.
Do you already have this info? It is for P1300.
12-11-2007, 07:22 PM
#200
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Thread Starter
I did not have that info. Lot's of good tests there. Very helpful indeed.
When I subscribed to the TIS website for the day, I downloaded as much info as possible but seems like I missed a section.
Is there a whole part of the FSM with various "Tests with Codes"? If so... I am missing a lot of helpful tips, tests and info.
No wonder this is so hard.... I can't even cheat right.
When I subscribed to the TIS website for the day, I downloaded as much info as possible but seems like I missed a section.
Is there a whole part of the FSM with various "Tests with Codes"? If so... I am missing a lot of helpful tips, tests and info.
No wonder this is so hard.... I can't even cheat right.
