I have a Detroit in the rear, so I have no 'on/off' control like you rich guys I would think that using chains in my case would help me keep better control in the snow, meaning I would need to chain up sooner than most, and keep them on longer. I have only run in the snow with my locker once so far, when we were at the highest of the FS 70, 'Air Nissan' run. I have to admit that my Detroit was a little frightening at first, on both the washboards down low and the snow. Once I slowed up a little it was fine, but if I were to do a snow run with a group I would stay in the back of the line so I could move a little slower and not hold up the rest

 

I did learn something from that trip. Never talk when you are wheelin. :pat: Because I was making fun of Gene when he got on the other end of Rob's winch. To get up a little hill that Mike and myself got up with on problem. I'm sorry Gene.

 

It's all karma my friend! Heh-heh!

 

Hey Rob, I'm taking a bunch of people from church on a snow run on Saturday - we're busy Sunday

I'm concerned that we won't fun enough snow given the weather conditions. The trip is primarily for families to bring their kids and their daily driver rigs, get as far as we can and then pull out the sleds, maybe have a campfire etc.

How high is Steamboat Ridge and approximately how long does it take to get there from Tacoma?

I'm heading to Evan's Creek and Mowich Lake on Friday morning with Scott to see if we have any snow. Bill found some last week at Evan's Creek but the freezing level's going to be over 6000' for the rest of the week.

 

You are probably going to be okay with your original destination of Denny Creek. We were up at Tinkham last weekend and found PLENTY of snow. Denny is higher even still. I don't think that a week could have possibly melted all that we saw unless I missed a few sunny and 90 degree days this week... hehehhehe

But to answer your question, I am not sure how far it is from Tacoma, I have never come that way. But if you can get your mileage to Enumclaw I can step in from there.

The FS road is just a bit less than 20 miles down 410 from Enumclaw and from the turn off of 410 it is eight miles one direction and 12 miles the other to the top of the pass. From there, Steamboat Rock is 1/4 mile. So, 20 plus 410, subtract my weight, carry the one, I get just a shade over 30 miles from Enumclaw before you have a eagle's eye view.

We saw a couple of spots at Tinkham that had sledding potential and of course there is always good old Gardner Mountain. Hardly anyone goes up there this time of year.

 

Rob, could you bring that dvd with you Sunday. The one you were telling me you had on the last run.I would like to watch it. :xmas7:

 

The one with the monster trucks doing rock climbs? Sure... We can watch it at lunch on my laptop.

 

I was looking at the pics and vids from the mini snow run. One thing I noticed is that you guys appears to have way to much air in your tires. What pressure did you air down to?

 

I was running 15psi.

 

17PSI
In ice it doesn't matter what PSI you are at. Your not going anywhere.

 

FYI, that's way to high for snow. You're tires were hardly even flattening out. In snow like that you need a maximum footprint and should probably run in the 6-8 lbs range. As long as you have a decent tire this range shouldn't cause you any problems. If your running an AT tire, you MIGHT pop a bead if you get hung up on a rock or stump that pushes the tire of the rim.

You'd be absolutely amazed at home much more traction you get. I remember running with Joe Chacon a couple years back. He was breaking trail for us. When we got as far as the group was going to get, Joe aired down to 0lbs and kept going. Did didn't quite make it to the end of the trail but even going down from 6lbs to 0lbs got him a lot farther on the trail. He was not running beadlocks either. You do have to be carefull of any sideways stress when running this low. If you're running minimal off camber trails, like fire roads and FS roads, you shouldn't have a problem. If you running a regular trail the sideloads would kill a tire and rim aired that low.

 

I beg to differ.. OK I don't beg, I just differ.:confused: I'm not suggesting that it's like adding chains but you'll get a lot farther than a hard tire. 15lbs, especially in cold conditions, IS a hard tire.

Next time you get in a position like that (and you have an air supply available, try dropping the pressure way down and see how you do. Where Jeff's truck was stuck, it would probably have made a huge difference.

 

I was running 16 psi. Maybe I will try it. We have plenty of air supply. We had three compressors. Two ARB's and a Quick air. And a bike pump Isn't that right Rob.

 

Rob, you also said you had a cool rock crawling dvd as well.

 

Yep, it's the same one. The monster trucks doing hill climbs is at the end.

 

I would like to watch it. What do you think about the air pressure in the tires?

 

Gibby, what you are saying is technically true. The lower the PSI, the higher the footprint and traction, except in a few corner cases where "cupping" occurs.

However, you are missing the forest for the trees. That is the BIG picture.

When you begin to approach 10 PSI or lower, the risk of sidewall puncture increases dramatically, as does the risk of debeading or spinning a rim in the tire. The more you are prone to be a bit lead footed, the more you risk this eventuality. On top of that, airing down that far is extrememly effective in soft snow or in ice that is relatively uniform. Bumpy ice and ruts also increases your chances of debeading.

Let me set up a scenario for you. A group of relatively inexperienced wheelers, in ice conditions, out for a simple day fun run. Most are prone to instinctually think of "more gas" as a solution to most woes. The ground is frozen solid and the snow has an ice crust. and the ruts down the road are mostly ice.

A winch is present, along with someone who knows how to use it. The group is out for fun and really doesn't care how far it gets.

While I would agree that if we HAD to get through, airing down further would be an advantage, in this scenario, the chance of a lead foot spinning a wheel on blowing a bead out weighed the need to get somewhere. It was far easier to call it quits and move on or to winch out a stuck, than it would have been to reseat a bead in those conditions.

Airing down to ten PSI or below is a relatively advanced technique, best used by those who know how to use their gears to prevent wheel spin. In the hands of the inexperienced, it is a recipe for disaster.

I stand by the decicion to run 15 PSI to get a bit more traction without increasing the risk too much in this situation and fully acknowledge the truth to what you assert.

 

Rob we differ on a lot of things LOL

Tire patch studies show that going down to 15 lbs make little difference in tire patch, however, when you hit 10-12 pounds is when the tire really starts to flatten out.

I understand your big picture scenario, but I still think 15 or 17 lbs is much to high for wheeling period, let alone in snow or when you're stuck.

This is not so much a comment on the individual event where someone was stuck on the hill as it is educational and makes for good debate.

It may be a good time to teach people how to drive correctly and safely (if that fits into the big picture of the day).

As far as the beads coming off, I don't see that to be a big problem down to 10 lbs as you say and on relatively flat roads 9even with ruts) I think you can go lower. Where I see this being a concern is only with weak walled AT tires and off-camber sharp turns.
I do not agree at all that the risk of sidewall puncture increases by lowering tire pressure.

I agree with you 100% that we web wheelers JK behind the computer don't know the big picture of the day and being onsite to make decisions is the only way to do it.

I do think that Jeff would have been better off, letter some air out, getting unstuck and then putting some air back in if necessary, unless you all wanted to have fun watching him dig and strap up to a tree :o) This is kinda fun some times

 

Ha now let's not get dirty at my expense. Althought I do like being the center of attendtion.

 

Here's a chart that is commonly refered to by the major tire manufacturers, deflator manufacturers and off road groups. It lists the minimal advised pressure to deflate to for a variety of tires and vehicle weights.



How much you can air down is indicated by tire type, size, terrain and ability level. While the chart pretends to be one size fits all, we know that is not true. However, it does indicate a good guideline for those just starting out who are not familiar with one of the factors listed above. You can obviously go much lower than the chart indicates, many of us have. However, we chose to spend the day wheeling instead of making repairs and reseating beads.

If Ape had gone a bit lower, the gain in that stuff would have been insignificant. Zero traction, plus zero traction is still zero traction. Had he gone A LOT lower, he would have almost certainly spun a rim.